Topic starter
29/08/2015 4:47 pm
A month or so ago the QUEEN OF THE MISSISSIPPI was landed at Cox's Park here in Louisville...high water on the Miss made her run over here. I had never really looked at the boat up close, while I was standing on the river bank the mate off the boat came up and we started talking. I asked him about the crew size. He said that the boat operates under subchapter H rules (whatever that is) as less than 100 tons. With that classification the amount of required operating personnel...Capt., pilots. mates, etc....is less than the required engine room crew, much less the navigational officers, on our favorite overnight steamboat will be. My question, does the AMERICAN EAGLE operate under the same subchapter H rules?
I just doesn't seem fair, our favorite steamboat carries the same number of passengers, is about the same physical size, operates in the same conditions, but has to carry twice as many operational personnel.
29/08/2015 7:01 pm
Did he possibly say Subchapter "K". Seems that some of the gambling boats were "high capacity" yet were under 100grt. allowing reduced crewing.
Just a wild off the wall guess.
Topic starter
29/08/2015 8:05 pm
perhaps it was subchapter K
29/08/2015 9:20 pm
*RE: Subchapter H Rules/Vessel operation*
Good afternoon Steamboat colleagues:
Jim, you opened an interesting discussion couched in a question and I think Capt. Jim Blum is on to something here. I promptly went on line seeking and searching. What pops up is, indeed 'Subchapter H Rules' for vessels. From appearances there are various other internet web sites linking with possibly all one would ever want to know--or even care. I found information with the below access:
http://navcal.com/navcal/passengervesselclassespd
No doubt Jim, Capt. Bill Judd, Judy Patsch with experience on the NATCHEZ and others who now and then lurk or chime in could enlighten us even more. Passenger/cruise ship or boat operations today are a very 'labor intensive' operation. Think of some of the boats/ships we know with officers, engineers, deck crew, hotel staff, support staff aboard and ashore. In the old days at sea until recently some gold braid blue water cruise ships had aboard a crew compliment of roughly 1:1 crew per passenger. CUNARD LINE operated their 1st Class cruise liner CARONIA on the 1:1 ratio--and that's what cost so much in time. Now the crew ratio on ships is lower a bit but still high. People may complain about the need, demands, cost of all this but when they come up not getting the service they claim they have booked and paid for then it's a different story. This one factor with sustaining/operating steam ocean vessels is the expense for extra crew, firemen, officers below decks. Again, 'you get what you pay for' and 'going 1st Class costs only a little more. Again, what do I know?
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati
29/08/2015 11:37 pm
Crew members on NATCHEZ
Dale, that link doesn't open for me, but I presume you were suggesting we'd know about the crewing numbers. Originally the NATCHEZ was licensed for 1600 passengers and 33 crew members. Using the new average weights of us hefty Americans, the passenger capacity has been cut down to 1250 or so, but the crew remains listed at 33. Now here are my calculations for crew for a dinner cruise, which has a higher number of workers than the day trips:
In my day, 1984-94: Navigation/deck 10; Engineering 3; Gift Shop 2; Band 6; Galley 3; F&B(servers, bartenders, runners)10 TOTAL 34
Today, with the F&B gone wild: Navigation/deck 10; Engineering 3; Gift Shop 2; Band 6; Galley 4; F&B(servers, bartenders, runners, managers, dishwashers, hosts, cocktail, etc. etc.) 20+ TOTAL 45+ Now the F&B number is a pure guess as I don't enter the high sanctum when I ride now, but it is based on observing from the outer decks. The day trips have a 3 piece band and perhaps only 8-10 in the dining room I think, so the crew total would be around 35...
There is something 'cooking' which could probably rid, er, need fewer F&B personnel on the NATCHEZ in the future. I so desperately want the boat to be in charge of the Captain again instead of the absentee F&B manager.
30/08/2015 12:27 am
Not only does it affect crew size and licensing, it also affects lifesaving and firefighting equipment and a host of other things. It all has to do with the arcane laws concerning admeasurement. A marine architect can build a boat almost any size and with a few tweaks (doors here and there, a deck raised one foot, etc., etc.) the architect can make a boat come in under 100 gross tons. Size and weight have absolutely nothing to do with it. A Coast Guard officer in the admeasurement office once told Alan Bates, "Mr. Bates, when you play an absurd game you must expect absurd rules.", or something to that effect.
30/08/2015 2:30 pm
*Crew size/Licensing.Admeasurement*
Steamboating colleagues:
Judy, thanks for your insights on crew etc. with the NATCHEZ. I also found a 'glitch' with the web site when I went back to click and read again. Could be a mistake with me transposing the site letters or it possily just dropped as some web sites do after a period of time.
This one fascinating topic growing more and more. I knew Capt. Bob Reynolds would also chime in to elaborate even more. No doubt others like Capt. Bill Judd can add additional. I also pondered the "lifesaving and firefighting" aspects. Detailed information like this reveals to people just how complex, detailed, involved the operation of ANY passenger vessel can be.
Our own Capt. Alan Bates butted heads many a time with not only the Coast Guard but other offices/marine regulatory people--and he loved it to no end enjoying rubbing the bark on the trees in the wrong direction. Alan admitted "I won some and lost some--probably more than I won." Again, thanks to all above so far for this fascinating topic. I learn more and more each day just what I don't know. *My 2nd eye surgery this coming Tuesday for rapidly advancing cataracts. It's been a real process for several weeks now with good and bad days. Want this over and done so I can, hopefully, toss away eye glasses I've been wearing for some 61 years and back to driving alone. Please all of you out there remember to wear sunglasses, hat to avoid what I learned being a 'sun bunny.' Cheers!
R. Dale Flick
Ole Coal Hveen Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.
Topic starter
30/08/2015 5:46 pm
As I was standing there talking to the mate off the QUEEN OF THE MISSISSIPPI, I couldn't help thinking "steam is really dead". I wrote that on here five years ago and I was accused of being "negative", a "doomsayer", "not with the program", but standing there just confirmed, to me, what I wrote those years ago. I don't care how well a steamboat is run and managed, the inherent costs in operating a steam plant, in fuel, man power, maintenance, etc. just makes it noncompetitive to a modern, diesel powered vessel. Running an overnight passenger boat is a business and, like all businesses, it all comes down to the bottom line.
30/08/2015 6:58 pm
In one area, perhaps
If you are talking about overnight steamboats, yes steam is on life-support. However steam is NOT dead - come down and ride the NATCHEZ, which has drawn a record number of passengers this year. Or in your backyard, the BELLE!
Topic starter
30/08/2015 8:36 pm
Judy, the BELLE is a bad example because it is subsidized by City of Louisville. If left to its own devises, the BELLE would have been out of business years ago, probably as far back as 1968 when it needed new boilers. Without the civic support of Liberty Bank "leasing" new boilers to the boat, the BELLE would have been tied to the bank. I doubt this would have happened if the boat had been privately owned. The city chose to buy a diesel boat, the SPIRIT OF JEFFERSON, when they were looking for a smaller boat to operate in combination with the BELLE and they cut down on the Belles weekly days of operation in order to curtail some expenses.
Yes, the NATCHEZ is a sterling example that steam, although it might be dead, is not buried yet. Without the Dow's commitment to steam and New Orleans taking the boat to heart, history might have been completely different.
Along that note...this being the 10th anniversary of KATRINA.....what a wonderful thing the Dows did by tramping the boat to Cincinnati to keep the crew employed in the days after that horrible disaster. What a great thing they did.
30/08/2015 8:50 pm
AMEN to that Brother, Jim!
31/08/2015 2:24 am
Family owned boats
That is the advantage to having a boat owned and operated by a family instead of a corporation. And a most caring family at that! But this is manifested on both the TWILIGHT and SPIRIT OF PEORIA too. The Captain is the owner and is right there to see what is going on and is one of the crew. And with the relocation of one Capt. Dow to NOLA this winter, the NATCHEZ will have the owner present too. Funny how well and profitable an operation can be when run by people who care and know their product so well!