DQ Repairs

Matthew,

She will be required to be drydocked as part of her 5 year inspection, prior to receiving a new Certificate of Inspection (COI). So yes, if this actually happens, she will have to be drydocked. The boilers will have to be replaced for her to run again. How and where this is to be done, I do not know. They could cut the existing boilers up in place and haul them out in pieces. The new ones could be smaller than the current, so that opens up many avenues for them to come aboard.

The calliope sprayboard was always kinda too "circusy" to me, and I for one hope it is removed. The whistles would be even more stunning with out it and the "Aurora Effect" would be nothing short of amazing with out it! The stack: The green is a nod to her former owners, Greene Line Steamers. The white crown was always a maintenance nightmare. However, it was white with a purpose. You see, the White Collar Line steamboats were based in Cincinnati. The white crown on the DELTA QUEEN was in honor of Commodore Laidley and his White Collar Line (all their boats had white collars on their stacks). I believe it should be put back as the stack now lays down and can be cleaned by the crew with ease.

Of course, I am not the person or persons who will make these decisions. I just hope those who can make them will look back into history for the path to the future. This has always been the successful way of the river and always will be.

Travis

Travis Vasconcelos;31769 wrote:

The calliope sprayboard was always kinda too "circusy" to me, and I for one hope it is removed. The whistles would be even more stunning with out it and the "Aurora Effect" would be nothing short of amazing with out it! The stack: The green is a nod to her former owners, Greene Line Steamers. The white crown was always a maintenance nightmare. However, it was white with a purpose. You see, the White Collar Line steamboats were based in Cincinnati. The white crown on the DELTA QUEEN was in honor of Commodore Laidley and his White Collar Line (all their boats had white collars on their stacks). I believe it should be put back as the stack now lays down and can be cleaned by the crew with ease.

Of course, I am not the person or persons who will make these decisions. I just hope those who can make them will look back into history for the path to the future. This has always been the successful way of the river and always will be.

Travis

AMEN, Brother!!! I have never liked the circus geegaws that were put on before the 1971 season. It looks tawdry at best and requires too much time and paint to keep it in good order.

I heard the calliope sprayboard keeps the noise back away from the pilothouse.

The repairs facing whoever buys the boat will be daunting and expensive. The color of the calliope sprayboard will be the least of their worries. Take it from someone who knows, you lay-up a boat that's working perfectly, when you comeback six months later something is always not working. It's a boat and that's the nature of the beast. What about the paddlewheel? Unless it's regularly turned, it's been sitting there for four years drying out and will probably have to be completely rebuilt. What do you think that will cost? And believe me drydocking always reveals a lot of expensive surprises. Just getting the boat to a drydock will cost more than most of us make in half our lifetime. No the calliope and smokestack crown are nothing compared to what other problems they will face. Just read Letha Greene's book.....after they got the DQ's first drydock bill from Dravo in 1947, they tried to sell the boat because they realized "it aint gonna be easy".

If they do rebuild the paddle wheel of the DQ i hope they keep the same design.

My guess is that if the wheel is rebuilt it will be the same basic design.

Capt. C.W.Stoll said that the wheel that she had in her California days irked Capt. jesse P. Hughes, and the wheel was redesigned to pretty much what it is now.

As Jimmy Reising stated, it's going to take a lot of money and hard work to get the Old Gal in shape. I'm sure the lumber bill for a new wheel would be quite staggering alone.

1980 rebuild

When her shaft cracked in 1980, they built the new wheel on the DK's shaft and it was / is the same design as the original.

If you used the same shaft and flanges how could you redesign a paddlewheel except for making it somewhat smaller or larger in diameter and/or changing the bucket width and depth?
I pulled out my old dog-eared copy of the SAGA OF THE DELTA QUEEN and looked at the pictures of the boat on the ways at Dravo and the wheel is the same as it is today.

*Why Capt. Jesse was "irked"
Steamboating colleagues:
I 'think' what "irked Capt. Jesse Hughes" also "irked" Capt. Tom Greene; and that was what they considered back here on our rivers the DK's infernal wood/copper paddlewheel housing so common to many West coast river steamers. They also thought about the possibility of heavy spray ice forming under and inside here while running during the winter. Even early Mardi Gras departures could be brutal then with cold and snow until well down to the 'sunny south.' Capt. Tom was more than "irked" too with the stained glass domes in both the DK & DQ's aft cabins in dedidedly 1920s Art Deco motif.

The wheel housings over the DELTA boats built to both dampen down sounds for the night run along with keeping rivers of wind-blown water spraying back on the decks. 'Frisco Bay even to the upper reaches prone to strong winds off the Pacific and we're talking salt water until they entered the Scramento. I've often wondered what present day prices for copper would be from the QUEEN's old paddle housing? I can give some idea from last week's plumbing job here having installed new copper piping, water valves in this house. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Something else that "irked" Capt. Tom was the smoke and suit the DQ emitted when she first arrived from sunny California, I saw a letter Tom wrote to Jim Burns asking about the problem. In the letter Tom stated "I know the Navy did a lot of experiments with the burners on the Queen." My question is why would the Navy experiment with burners on the Delta Queen? Was the Navy concerned about fuel consumption?
In that same letter Tom asked Burns whether the Queen ever experienced freezing temperatures in Calif. and if so was there anyway to drain the water pipes on the boat.

One blanches to think what those art deco domes would be worth.

What became of the two leaded art glass domes from the DQ? I have not a clue and would hate to think they went into the trash heap in 1946.

Anyone have a trail on them?

Jim, I THINK Dale may know. I seem to remember seeing once that they were given (or sold) to someone in Cincinnati and were put to some use.

*Glass skylights/domes on DK & DQ*
Morning, Bob, Jim & Steamboating colleagues:
First, pull down Capt. Fred Way's 'The Saga of the DELTA QEEN,' Young & Klein, Cincinnati, 1951, for Fred's words and pictures of those ellusive stained glass domes/skylights initially installed on the DK/DQ. Art Deco they are and not Art Nouveau as I was asked yesterday via E=Mail. Steamboats, steamships, public buildings--even some private homes--had such built in back then to admit filtered light during the day. Before full electrification, skylights were at times the only natural bright light along with being stylish or just showing who could afford it as a sign of wealth. Now you know why some vintage urban homes and buildings face theft of stained glass, copper, bronze fittings today. The stained glass as such dampened, softened what is termed "The high, great light" in Europe.

Last word I had from a West coast local was that the KING's one glass dome was/is still in/on the grounds of Fulton Shipyard, Antioch, California used as a kind of 'hot house' for growing of plants and vegetables. And it is in private hands with refusals to budge on the matter.

Not all of the refurbishing, redecorating of the DELTA QUEEN was done at Dravo, Pittsburgh, 1947/'48. The boat steamed here for final finishing, decorating with Mrs. Letha Greene stepping in to do the shopping, ordering of furniture and fixtures down to the new drapes in the forward lounge windows. One skylight was removed, given to somebody living across the river in northern Kentucky and its fate unknown to me at the present. Don't know what happened to the other one, but good chance from a few photos it was broken up. Who knows? The stained glass skylights at times a 'touchy' subject when brought up depending on the audience.

In records here I was given by John Burns, old Jim Burns' son, on the building of the DELTA boats, there is the reference to the art glass company in California who did the original design and assembly. I GOOGLED and sleuthed until blue in the face finding no current company in business. There were references in records to other commissions they had done from homes to churches, auditoriums, concert halls etc. My initial thought to contact any surviving company to inquire on the DELTA boat stained glass, the designers and assemblers. As mentioned here previously, stained glass domes--unless artifically illuminated from behind at night, often after dark appeared black and cold. Many big, new cruise ships returning to stained glass domes and other fixtures at a great cost. They are beautiful and now illuminated artifically from behind for that rich, warm glow. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

*DQ 'smoke'/Winter draining of pipes*
Hi, Jim & Steamboating colleagues:
The U.S. Navy had more problems and questions for old Jim Burns than they anticipated opeating the DELTA boats during W.W. II on 'Frisco Bay. To the navy they were an 'odd breed.' Jim Burns by then was no spring chicken in his own right. Jim came out of retirement serving as a consultant/surveyor on the building of navy landing craft up in the bay for the war effort. The DELTA boats engines were somewhat of an enigma to even the veteran navy engineers and old salts compared to what they new on coventionally designed ships and other craft. John Burns related to me that in no time the navy had to call in his dad periodically with questions and problems in operating the two boats. John himself had earned his boiler license as a young man with the 'California Transportation Co.' partly under his dad's tutoring along with the other engineers. John, as a teen, had been his dad's "legs" during the building of the DK/DQ due to Jim having a gimpy leg.

We've talked here several times about the DQ suffering severe damage to her high pressure engine during the war. The navy had to contract for an entirely new engine costing as much, it is written, "...than Capt. Tom Greene paid for the whole boat in 1947." Again, Jim Burns was called in to consult on the casting, milling of that new engine. Kenny Howe may know more about that from his experience.

Nothing new to our colleagues on this web concering all that heavy black smoke like having dollars going up the stacks. This in addition to not being efficient, causing untold dirt from the soot and smuts. Even the mighty QUEEN MARY and QUEEN ELIZABETH had issues during their steaming years. Late at night passengers at sea were warned not to go out on the upper decks as they were "blowing out the funnels."

The one who can tell you all and more--among others--is Capt. Clarke 'Doc' Hawley about the DQ's water pipes during very cold winters here in Cincinnati during layup. The boats, built for California service, were according to John Burns never totally insulated as they would have been back here. There it can be cold in Sacramento with frost. Nothing like the temps back here. Doc has talked about the continuing water pipes bursting in the winter and how they had Cal Benefeld and Ralph Horton to heat the DQ up like a hot house to pevent other damage during bitter cold weather. I remember being on the DQ the bitter winter of 1962 here when ice jammed in the river. The boat was laid up with work inside and all a shambles. You walked in the cabin nearly suffocated with the heat. As to all that black soot. How many here remember the 'spider man' who was from the DQ crew who walked around with broom, sponges, bucket cleaning down the spider webs along with the soot from decks, railings, walls and overheads? That was a long time ago. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Virginia Bennett might be able to help out as to the where abouts of the stained glass dome that found it's way to Kentucky. Dale is right, one of the early DELTA QUEEN's Greene Line mates from Northern Kentucky had the dome. The family, if I remember correctly, tried to sell it maybe 10 years or so ago, and I saw photos of it online and how it was displayed at that time.

I recall we have talked about the domes before but I am not familiar with the search function to find out if/when the chat took place.

Wesley

Wesley Paulson;31840 wrote: I recall we have talked about the domes before but I am not familiar with the search function to find out if/when the chat took place.

Wesley

http://www.steamboats.org/forum/steamboats-history/2747-delta-queen-trivia-win-snickers-bar-3.html check this out

Stained Glass Dome - Fulton Shipyard

Matthew -

Thanks for the link. I did some searching in Google and found this link to an aerial view of Fulton's. I cannot tell where the greenhouse dome might have been located.

Wesley

Fulton Shipyard Rd, Antioch, Contra Costa, California 94509, United States - Google Maps

*The ellusive stained glass domes*
Hi, Frank, Wesley & Steamboating colleagues:
Another aspect of those glass domes that "irked" Capt Tom Greene, were the intricate tapestries mounted in the dome housings to be viewed looking up. They were termed "allegorical or pastoral" in design/rendering along the lines of the Renaissance. POOF! they also bit the dust. The initial design specs I saw for the domes on paper represented in Art Deco what appeared to be stylized flowers possibly tulips etc. Art Deco, compared to the more fluid, florid designs of Art Noveau, is more geometric, industrial in design with sharper shapes and forms.

Wesley, you'd need a better U.S. Geological aerial photo of Fulton Shipyard today to possibly see any remnants of the other stained glass dome. My close source there reported this some years back mentioning that "...any reception on their part to questions promptly ignored." What's that tell you? At this point I'd suggest don't even think to ask.

Frank is correct on the one dome being in the northern Kentucky area--or was. I was more than a tad 'coy' knowing the dynamics and personalities involved with certain attitudes. Any relic link to the DK and DQ is not guaranteed any big profit in the sale. Well. what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Wesley Paulson;31842 wrote: Matthew -

Thanks for the link. I did some searching in Google and found this link to an aerial view of Fulton's. I cannot tell where the greenhouse dome might have been located.

Wesley

Fulton Shipyard Rd, Antioch, Contra Costa, California 94509, United States - Google Maps

This might be a stab in the dark. On the map, look at the yellowish building just above the white truck on Fulton Shipyard Rd, on the right of that building it looks like there is an extension added, in that corner where the extension was added appears to be a dome like structure. The more I zoomed the blurrier it got. Again, maybe just a stab in the dark.

*Three skylights on the DK/DQ/Aerial Antioch*
Hi, Wesley & Steamboating colleagues:
Thanks much for your link to GOOGLE Maps/Aerial of Fulton Shipyard, Antioch, Contra Costa, California. I ran through a different site and got down within feet without blurring. I looked, looked and looked not seeing any domed structure. I'll attack it again tomorrow. Remember, just a few years can make a big difference with any structure or land site.

Fact is there were THREE stained glass skylights on each of the DELTA boats [DK/DQ] according to the original plans in drawings here. No mention if ever the top or roofs of the skylights could be opened similar to an ocean ship to allow an updraft of air or not--and I doubt it. The two skylights we know were above the aft 'Social Hall' now known as the 'Betty Blake Lounge.' The other skylight/light dome was above the Dining Saloon just aft of the Purser Office and the old Barber Shop--later the souvenir/notions shop we all know so well. The old Dining Saloon, along with Central Pantry, now where the later post 1947 'Parlor' cabins were installed. The lower deck was the real money maker for freight/autos etc. only later to be remodeled in 1947/'48 into the dining room--later 'Orleans Room.' Again, Art Deco began to appear as an art form coming fully after W.W. I and end of the Victorian and Edwardian eras. The style was fully recognized in/around 1924/'25. The aft cabin 'Social Hall' then was pure 'Flapper, Charleston, and Rudolph Valeninto era'--certianly no southern grand cotton packet in style. From the beginning the KING was named the flagship by the 'California Transporation Co.' The QUEEN almost came within an inch of being scratched in the building program until DENNY BROS., Dumbarton, Scotland, cut a deal to hold the QUEEN on their account until C.T. Co. could muster the financial resources to finish both boats. DENNY quoted something like a mere 4% per annum on their books. There WERE some later variations in building/equipping both boats with the QUEEN being short-sheeted in certain areas.

One brief notation I find here in the Burns papers refering to the "cost of the skylights in stained glass" mention Capt. and company president Anderson biting his tongue agreeing to "...go ahead with the skylights as planned in spite of higher price than quoted." I guess by the time the "two million dollar babies" were ready to enter service in 1926/1927, the feeling was to do it with style. Yet, the life of the two steamers was shorter than expected. Might as well 'go with a good buzz rather than not go at all.' Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Dale,

I was looking through the pictures of the DQ I have from Fultons on my laptop and checked out the dining room pictures I have and can't find the third skylight in the dining room.

The best image I have is taken from the barber shop looking aft into the dining room (I will attach it to this message for review). You can see the temporary bulkhead for the CPO's Mess Hall in the dining room (on the port side of the dining room...you can see the lights from the windows on the starboard side clearly indicating there wasn't a temporary bulkhead on that side of the room). I expect this is where Capt. Tom Greene may have gotten the idea to add the parlor staterooms where the dining room was located. I am sure he saw the size after walking into this CPO's Mess Hall and the ideas started flowing.

However, it appears the central coffering beam stretches the length of the room. As a matter of fact, it stretches to the forward skylight coffering frame in the Aft Cabin Lounge today. I know where the other two skylights were located. Not that I doubt you.

I am just wondering if the idea of the third skylight was scratched while the DQ was under construction for cost concerns.

Having done a lot of research aboard the boat over the years, I have never seen evidence of this third skylight. Not to say it wasn't there...I just haven't seen anything to indicate it's presence. Unless it was a very small one (compared to the markedly larger barrel vaulted units in the Aft Cabin Lounge) located in the space where the storage closet is today (I will attach a picture taken in the Parlor stateroom area last month so you can see the coffering beam leading to the storage closet area). It seems to come to memory that the coffering beam runs through this closet. Next time I am in Chattanooga I will have to open it up and inspect a little further as I can't say as I remember for sure if it is in there. This closet is about 5' x 5'...so if it was there, it was an awfully small affair.

I can't say that I am correct here in my assumptions. But, I can say that I never heard of the third skylight on the DQ. So here is my two cents worth on the subject and photos to illustrate my assumptions. Thoughts?

Travis

*The skylight mystery deepens*
Hi, Travis, Jim & Steamboating colleagues:
Great pictures, Travis, and thanks for posting. What happened between the original construction plans and the end result with the DELTA boats DK/DQ a good question. And I don't know all the answers. Those with direct living memories even to 1947/1948 are quickly diminishing. Alan Bates often quipped, "Many a slip between the pen and the ship." I too often thought the forward skylight either was never completed or later blocked out. Consult Pgs. 57 and 83 of 'The Saga of the DELTA QUEEN' to see what 'could' be the housings for the skylights on the roof. I do know the U.S. Navy did tarp over the top housings during the war for tell-tale lights during W.W. II blackouts. How many here old enough to recall those W.W. II blackouts in the neighborhood of your own home town? So much of the earliest history of the DK/DQ were unknown prior to 1947 until Stan Garvey and John Burns traveled here to attend S&D's September meeting. Stan's book a refreshing look at the whole story. They were welcomed with no small amount of curiosity and trepidation. Not everything about the "big cast iron monster" the DQ happened just after 1947.

The brief, terse mention of the skylight costs in the Burns papers here indicate that C.T. Co. head honcho Capt. Anderson had gulped when he saw the bill for design, creation, installation of the domes--at least two we know of here. Anderson ran a tight ship with one big company fleet, shipyard and at times 1,200 employees then and would quibble over a mere four cent increase in wood for flooring in his several huge freight warehouses. Any surviving passengers, no matter how young then, who traveled on the DK/DQ in their night boat years or as adults are becoming as rare as our current death rate of W.W. II veterans. I'd concur with Jim Reising on the new thread that if GL Purser Bob McCann recalled "two skylights" then two it was. No doubt our speculation here could in time be supported by more photos, written records--even a living memory.

In their time the skylights may have been extravagant, but did serve several purposes. On our steamboats built for service back here, the stained glass transom lights in the clerestory of the long main cabin would be similar for light and ventilation. You can bet that today SOLAS, Coast Guard and other regulators wouldn't allow a full, open light shaft up through a vessel as a potential 'flume' for a fire. In many states now laundry chutes from upper floors of a home to the basemement now forbidden under new fire codes. But it's the law.

Prohibition began in many states as early as 1919 and not 1921 as in most. The DK/DQ, as night boats, were also known as 'party boats.' I'm sure many passengers carried on their own cache of liquid refreshments. The aft cabin, called the 'Social Hall,' then had a fine upright piano against one wall, 1920s ratan furnishings, heavy portier drapes at the door to the forward cabin area, potted palms direct from the Rudolph Valentino era. With the piano and socializing, I wonder how many got any real sleep in the cabins? Some night boats on the East coast had the custom of the Master at Arms/Night watchman dimming lights, dampening the revelers. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati