Empress of the North to become the largest cruise ship in Alaska??

This demonstrates how crazy things can get. Those in the non-passenger shipping industry are pushing for relaxing the requirements of the Jones Act or doing away with it altogether. And, as we know, those writing the laws know little or nothing about what is going on, and/or seem incapable of doing anything about it.

I have read the news story and I'm sorry if the current law is going to have a great affect on the people of Alaska. This just shows how little the American public knows about the laws that are in place to protect our economy. If the laws are allowed to be relaxed for cruiseships then it won't be long before it will be asked for by inland companies and we will have towboats with, let's just say, non-english speaking crews on the rivers. There are a few lower class companies that are already trying to do this with crew members that have the best papers a printer can print.

So in my opinion if they want to cruise Alaska then build American ships with American crews.

First of all: NCL America is in troubles - and sorry to say so - because of the American crew. It´s mainly college students which are thinking they are going on a big vacation (instead of hard work). People don´t book these cruises anymore because of zillions of complaints about service and all.

Second: I don´t know where to get this all American crew. Majestic has problems finding trained crew not only in the navigation and engineering departement but mainly in the hotel departement. Here in Germany we do have a 3 years apprenticeship to become a waiter for a good restaurant. Also in the hotel business there are lots of jobs where you have to do a 3 years apprenticeship.

Third: Especially in Alaska cruise ships are big business! The whole summer season is living from the cruise ships. Tour operators, hotels, rental cars, airlines and mainly shops! What about those jobs and the Americans living from them?

IMHO enforcing this law is going to destroy a lot of US economy.

Carmen

Carmen,

Please don't get offended. These laws are there for a reason.

As for NCL America, if they paid proper wages they would be able to get proper crew. Industry wide there are crewing issues. The people are out there, but proper wages need to be paid. Why should a well trained, proper merchant seaman work on a cruise ship for one a small amount of money when he can work on a cargo vessel for twice the amount? NCL needs to change there practices. Don't forget the "N" NCL stands for Norwegian. They are used to running foreign flag ships with cheap labor. You as a passenger only really get to interact with the service staff and not the regular crew. Unfortunately, the college students that you are speaking of are all that a company like that is willing to hire because they work for cheap!

American crew must be used on American vessels. If I might point out on German Flag ships the rules are no different.

Also, I do understand what you are saying about how things are done in Germany, Ich bin Deutscher. If I might point out that here in the States, as you know, service industry employees are not treated or paid very well. If service industry people were treated here the way they are treated in Europe you would have a different experience on those NCL America Ships.

I am a firm believer in these laws because they protect my job and my profession. I am sorry if their misinterpretation is creating a negative effect. It should have never been allowed to begin with.

Having grown up in a resort, renting rooms since I was a young teen-ager (and cleaning rooms from the time I was old enough to "help" by holding a feather duster) I am probably a more critical passenger than most--and more forgiving than most, understanding some of the disasters that happen behind the scenes. Because of this background, I was surprised to find that there are college courses to learn what I grew up knowing. But now I really do understand the need for such training. The skills learned are valuable, and should be rewarded. I don't know if many understand the work that goes into making the passengers' experience a good one. It takes a lot out of one, but the appreciation the passengers show gives back much too.
I hadn't realized it until I became the manager of the city's performing arts center, the two are very closely related. At the PAC we put on a show, hoping people will come, and the standing ovation afterwards gives us more than just confirmation that we succeeded, but inspiration to go on. Providing vacation accommodations is also putting on a show--it's just a lot longer show! The longer the show, the more uncontrollable variables enter to give one a challenge to overcome or capitalize on to enhance the "patrons" experience.
That being said; to turn this "performance" over to a crew of greenhorn college kids is skating with disaster. Yes, they have a lot of energy, but it needs lots of guidance. There's nothing like the school of hard knocks to teach you things you didn't even think about (and YES, I have some horror stories to tell--and I'm still learning, This year I found out it doesn't matter how good an act is, don't book them for Tuesday night! My budget is still in trouble over that one! --I should have known better, any good vaudevillian manager could've told me that!)
I am afraid that the solution to this problem must come from the top. Management needs to learn that finding good staff is directly related to rewarding them—both by pay and by quality of life. OK, there’s a variable, what does it mean? I believe quality of life means how your staff interprets your concern for their well-being. It also means what kind of atmosphere the staff lives in, one of teamwork and appreciation for each other. A “happy” staff usually means happy passengers. Our experience on board the DQ this year showed that. Our first trip was the first one out for 2007; the second was a month later. You could see the staff working closer together towards the end of the first trip, and even more so the second trip. You could also see a few changes and some “adjustments” going on—fairly normal stuff with such close quarters as is on board. All in all, I’d rate the DQ staff we had as pretty near excellent. Especially when one factors in the uncertainty of future that they work under.
Well, I didn’t expect to ramble on this much! So I will close with wishes for a Merry Christmas.
Steamcerely,
David Dewey

Joe,

You´re absolutey correct that proper wages need to be paid.

NCL America does not have any problems finding crew for the navigation or engineering department. The main problem is the hotel department. In jobs where you need a special qualification like a license you won´t have a big problem finding a properly paid job. And I´m definitely not happy with the way NCL America is treating their staff (BTW NCL and NCL America are two seperate sister companies).

In case of the Passenger Vessel Service Act you have to consider that this is a 121 year old law. You also have to consider why this law was made and how times have changed. The PVSA also requires that a US flagged vessel has to be built in the US. Unfortunately there is no shipyard in the US which is able to build a ocean cruise ship of the current sizes. AMCV tried to do so and therefore the origins of the current NCL America ships Pride of Aloha and Pride of Hawaii are lying in the US. But unfortunately this project soon was delayed even with the help of foreign experts. Then AMCV went bankrupt. The ships (in one case there was a hull, in the other case there were only some steel plates) were transferred to a big German shipyard (could have been Finland or France or Italy too) and finished there for NCL America. This was possible by an exemption from the PVSA.

I don´t see any necessity to reinterprete this law. Just keep the interpretation like it is. This is protecting inland river vessels. Especially as this would only help NCL America (which is holding a monopoly in the Hawaiian cruise business as they are the only ones holding a license for operating cruise ships out of Hawaii; this elusive business license came with the never finished AMCV ships). I don´t see any necessity to ruin the whole cruise business just to favor one company. Not regarding the businesses on shore which are depending on the cruise ships like the tourist industry in Alaska.

Carmen

PS: I´m totally aware that on German flagged ships crew (despite of the nationality) has to be paid according to German law. But you can hire whomever you want. Deilmann´s river cruise ships are German flagged. On the Danube river we found mostly Hungarians in the dining room. On the Elbe river the whole navigation crew was Czech (except for the German master) while the dining room staff was mainly German.

Something akin as to what I hear tell of the assembly floor of Daimler-Benz in Stuggart.

Carmen,

It is not the Passenger Vessel Service Act that is the problem; it is the Jones Act and the Cabbtoge laws. These laws are very specific that only American Flag vessels can sail domesticity. This is something that has been lax not only for ships coming in and out of Alaska, but also the U.S. Territories of Puerto Rico and the U.S.Virgin Islands. All of this has been done in the name of "tourism".

If an operator of a vessel wants to come into American Ports and run in between American Ports domestically, then they should abide by our laws. American Flag vessels with properly documented crews, not flagged in Liberia with Philippino crews.

Also, you stated "there is no shipyard in the US which is able to build an ocean cruise ship of the current sizes". Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes there are only a few can do the job, but they are there. Northup Grumman, Avondale just to name a couple off the top of my head. If Avondale can build a ULCC class oil tanker 330 meters long and aircraft carriers for the US Navy they are quit capable of build a shallow draft cruise ship for Hawaii or the Caribbean. As far as the help that was needed the NCL ships, which started out as AMCV ships, you can thank Sam Zell for that mess. Mr. Zell cann't tell the difference between a ship and rowboat!! One reason AMCV went bankrupt.

Most of the passengers that ride these ships in Alaska are American. Why should we as a nation, allow our dollars go to an offshore account of a cruise line where it can not be taxed? When I worked for Windjammer that is exactly what happened. Windjammer does not technically own the ships they are just an agent and the majority of the cruise lines running are no different. Each ship is its own company. American flagged ships are the same way. This limits their liability and a better tax situation.

I could go and on with many examples. The bottom line is if these companies want to run domestically in American waters tell them to build American ships.

Carmen I know your heart is in the right place ( and God bless you for that), but this is how American Maritime law works.

Froliche Weinachten!! & Haben Sie eine guten Neu Jahr!!!

Joe

Joe,

You´re right about the shipyards. But none of them has the experience in building ocean going cruise ships of the current size.

I think the main problem with reinterpreting this law is that a big part of the cruise business will be affected. It´s not only Hawaii (right now the non NCL America ships starting in San Diego, San Francisco or whereever on the West Coast are making "technical" stops in Mexico or go to Kiribati to have one non US port) and Alaska (there´s usually one stop in Canada, BC, Victoria, Vancouver or Prince Rupert) but it may also affect some Caribbean itineraries (as you stated Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands).

This is big business and this is only big business as long as they can offer the cruises for decent prices. These are thousands of jobs and you won´t find enough Americans to fill these jobs. If you don´t offer these cruises for the current prices most of the passengers aren´t able to afford them. And don´t forget a lot of the passengers in Alaska are spending their money in the US buying souvenirs or booking independent shore tours in Alaska. Don´t forget about the jobs in all the cruise ship headquarters (which are located in the US). Don´t forget about all the jobs in the US ports like New Orleans, Houston, Galveston, Miami, Fort Lauterdale, Orlando or on the East and West Cost. Don´t forget about all the companies supplying the ships when they are in US ports (like food, fuel). It´s not that this business doesn´t spend any money in the US.

Sure, if the cruise ship is only cruising between US ports it should be American flagged (and it must be according to current law). But business men always are looking for gaps in a law trying to save money. I don´t think there´s any need to ruin the whole cruise business just be reinterpreting a law in the meaning of reinforcing it when it worked perfectly for more than 100 years?

I´m a lawyer myself. I made law, I´m interpreting law and now I´m judging. Interpreting a law means to dig back to its roots and look what the original meaning of a law was when it was made. Have a look at the Safety At Sea Act. This is definitely a good law. But unfortunately noone thought about a river vessel and everybody thought of seagoing vessels when it was made.

Carmen

The Empress of the North maybe needs new boat drivers

The Empress of the North maybe needs some new boat drivers. I thought you might be interested in reading something I saw on CruiseCritic.com.
http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2334

Do any of you know what flag the Disney ship(s) fly? I watched a program about Disney cruises for a solid hour and there was not one good shot of the stern showing the flag of convenience. This was probably done purposely. In one shot it looked Panamanian, but I couln't tell for sure. I am still of the solid opinion that if I ever cruise on one of these "convenience" ships (not likely) I will carefully examine the lifesaving equipment, exits, lifeboats, fire extinguishers, etc., etc., and where is MY PFD and what condition is it in, because those crews are strictly every man for himself (which is the way it is on slave ships) and I would suggest that anyone else who intends to sail on one of these vessels do the same. You might want to be sure your will is in order before you go. Then have a good time and be constantly vigilant. I am not kidding.

The two Disney vessels fly the Bahamian flag. Years ago, before 9/11, I was able to easily photograph the DISNEY MAGIC at its berth in Port Canaveral. From shore side she looked all spit and polish.

Here is more about this interpretation

http://www.modernagent.com/Resources/Editorial.aspx?n=34185

and the original document with comments

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=USCBP-2007-0098

The title of the document is referring to Hawaiian cruises. The text of the document is not clarifying that this interpretation is only valid for Hawaii.

Carmen

Discussions of the Jones Act brings to mind issues that affected the boat company for which I worked in Florida. Through various ownerships, it has evolved into a company called Sea Key West Express.

They embarked on a program to upgrade the fleet and at one point considered catamarans built in Australia. But since they travel FROM an American port TO an American port, the boat had to be built in the U.S.

It has worked well for them in that the company who built the older boats, Gulfcraft out of Louisiana, built them a brand new cat that has been doing a great job for the company, with another one on the way. They also had to ensure that the crew was comprised of U.S. citizens.

One interesting theory about the Key West run from Marco and Ft Myers is that it is a prelude to a Key West to Havanna run when the time comes. The distance from Marco Island to Key West is the exact same 90 miles as it is from KW to Cuba. The company recently added a Miami to Key West run which makes it more evident to me that Cuba is in the back of a lot of people's minds.

I wonder what Jones Act implications there could be if the time comes when the boats could include a foreign port (Havanna) in their itineraries.

Is this an American flag company? Most of the ships we have been discussing, if not all, are foreign flag. I believe that would make a big difference. An American flag vessel still has to comply with Coast Guard regulations.

Lexie Palmore;9076 wrote: Is this an American flag company? Most of the ships we have been discussing, if not all, are foreign flag. I believe that would make a big difference. An American flag vessel still has to comply with Coast Guard regulations.

Yes it is. The Stars and Stripes fly from all the Sea Key West Express vessels and it is an American company based in Ft Myers, FL. It was one of my duties to monitor the condition of the flag on my boat and replace it when needed. I would take the old ones to the American Legion Post in KW for retirement.

Also, on the subject of flags, when we docked in Key West, we also flew the flag of the Conch Republic.

From Wikipedia:

"The Conch Republic is a micronation declared as a tongue-in-cheek protest secession of the city of Key West from the United States on April 23, 1982. It has been maintained as a tourism booster for the city since.

While the protest that sparked its creation, and others which have occurred periodically since then have been described by some as "tongue-in-cheek", they were motivated by frustrations over genuine concerns. The original protest event was motivated by a U.S. Border Patrol roadblock and checkpoint which greatly inconvenienced residents and was detrimental to tourism in the area."

Every year, I believe on Conch Republic Independence Day, there is a mock battle between the KW commercial fleet and the local Coast Guard cutter. Water balloons and other harmless ammunition are thrown. And, at least for the Conchs, it's a grand excuse for a party. Not that Key West ever really needs much of an excuse.

Paul

Carmen,

Regardless of how this old law from 1886 is looked at, you still can not get around the Jones Act. The only way a person could completely get around this issue is to repeal this law and the Jones Act. I personally will NEVER support any move to repeal these Acts. They secure my job and the jobs of many others like me that are trying to feed our families.

So what about us? What would be the suggestion if US Merchant sailors were to loss their jobs because shipping companies twist this around to change the flags on oil tankers or other vessels to Liberia? Would everyone be clamoring then? No of course not because we are out of sight. Most of the public don't even understand what we do for the economy or that we even exist. The American Merchant Marine is a part of the of the backbone of the American economy. We move products fast, cheap and in bulk. It is laws like these that protect that.

I am sorry if I sound cruel by I am going to protect what protects my ability to feed my family. There are more of our jobs at stake with repeal (and that is where this will go) than a hand full people of living in small towns or islands in Alaska, because repeal is where something like this will lead. This is not the first time these laws have been argued over in recent history.

Joe

Joe,

You have to get the facts right: I don´t say that the Jones Act is a bad law. But there´s no reason to reinterprete it and ruin the whole cruise business. There is definitely no reason to change it regarding the US Merchant Marine.

Anyway, read the comments regarding the reinterpretation. NCL America states that those technical stops in Encenada are ruining their business. RCL states that reenforcing this law is affecting 65% of their business (and only 43% of the Hawaiian cruises, but 100% of all East coast and Bahamas cruises, 82% of the Alaska business, 81% of the Caribbean business and 76% of the Panama Canal cruises). And BTW this is only a reinterpretation to help NCL America.

Another fact is that in 1992 the CBP decided that this short stop in Encenada is o.k.. In 1992 NCL International - the mother company of NCL America - was the reason for this CBP decision. This decision was confirmed in 1997 by the CBP. Interesting is that in 1992 AMCV was still holding the license for the exclusive Hawaiian business and no one cared for their business.

Interesting is also that NCL America is stating that this reinterpretation should be only valid for the Hawaiian business (hint, hint, because otherwise NCL Int. would get into troubles with the rest of the cruise business).

So obviously - see the title of this CBP document - this reinterpretation should be only vaild for Hawaii and is only to save one company, NCL America. NCL America did confess that they have problems getting proper crew. NCL America did confess that they withdrew the Pride of Hawai´i (renaming her Norwegian Jade) and relocate her to the Mediterrenean Sea because she can make much more money there.

Carmen

And what does the Conch Republic banner look like, just in case I'm sailing through the Dry Tortugas and happen to see it.

Lexie Palmore;9091 wrote: And what does the Conch Republic banner look like, just in case I'm sailing through the Dry Tortugas and happen to see it.

Here's a link in case I can't figure out how to insert the pic

www.united-states-flag.com/core3x5pofl.html

Paul Penta;9096 wrote: Here's a link in case I can't figure out how to insert the pic

www.united-states-flag.com/core3x5pofl.html

Here's the pic I think. Never done this

Good first try on the pix! Now you can post more! We probably should point out that Conch is pronounced konk - I never would have guessed that without having been in Key West.

Lexie Palmore;9018 wrote: [....]I will carefully examine the lifesaving equipment, exits, lifeboats, fire extinguishers, etc., etc., and where is MY PFD and what condition is it in, because those crews are strictly every man for himself (which is the way it is on slave ships) and I would suggest that anyone else who intends to sail on one of these vessels do the same. You might want to be sure your will is in order before you go. Then have a good time and be constantly vigilant. I am not kidding.

These assertions are far from being factual. I would urgently recommend you to educate yourself before making such statements especially as the U.S. registered passenger ships I traveled with clearly fall behind when compared to the standards of the cruise industry.

The overwhelming majority of high sea going passenger ships do not only comply with very strict regulations - the country of registry is entirely irrelevant in this context - but are in rather excellent condition and are operated by a very well trained staff.

Judy Patsch;9103 wrote: Good first try on the pix! Now you can post more! We probably should point out that Conch is pronounced konk - I never would have guessed that without having been in Key West.

You can even purchase a Conch Republic passport and claim "dual citizenship" in both the US and KW. The whole thing is truly a hoot, but the Conchs still use it as a symbol of their legendary independent lifestyle.

A buddy of mine from there, Michael McCloud, is a wonderful musician and song writer. He wrote one of the songs I do in my show, "Peace and Quiet". But another one of his tunes comes to mind in this discussion about KW - "Just Came Down For The Weekend( and that was 20 years ago)".

I'm starting to get a little wistful now for KW. I gotta go back. Might never come back. Check that - no steamboats there. Never mind.

Paul