Topic starter
09/05/2015 4:12 pm
To carry on the thread that kinda began in the History Repeats Itself thread under steamboats and history. The more I think about it the more it seems like it might be possible...if it can be done cheaply.
First you'd need a boat...what comes to my mind immediately is the RIVER BARGE, if its still in the Marad Fleet in Texas. I would think that Marad would sell it cheaply just to get rid of it. Who knows with the help of a congressman or senator who would love to show how they saved the Federal Govt money, it might be very cheap. If what I heard was true when the boat was laid-up, it needed abunch of hull replating. Hull work on a couple of convert oil barges would be a lot cheaper than converting any of the now laid-up gambling boats.
I'm not sure that I would buy a towboat to push it, it might be easier and cheaper to charter in power. Also you wouldn't have the expense of maintaining a towboat in the winter lay-up months. And by chartering in power on a fully found basis, the boat owner would supply the pilothouse crew and all of the responsibilities and expense that goes with that.
By going back and forth between two towns 12 hours apart, you could have the meals catered. I'm sure like Louisville, Cincinnati has hundreds of caterers who would love to get a business like this.
All meals...and there would only be two and a half on each trip....would be buffets. There would be a nice dinner upon leaving, a midnight spread, and breakfast the morning of arrival.
By catering the meals, the boat would not have to have a kitchen staff and by being buffets no huge wait staff, just a few busboys to clear the tables.
I could go on and on... like the maids and cleaning crew would come on the boat each morning and not ride the boat; you'd still probably need a chambermaid or two (who could double as busboys) to take care of accidents and emergencies.
What do you think, is this a good concept? Let your imagination run wild and make suggestions and your thoughts.
09/05/2015 10:38 pm
Jim: I like it! Not exactly the old L&C, but it would give folks a good trip and likely a good price done the way you've outlined.
Topic starter
10/05/2015 12:03 am
Bob, do know if the RIVER BARGE is still in the govt. fleet?
11/05/2015 12:52 pm
*Reviving L&C LINE/Considerations*
Morning, Steamboating colleagues,
Jim & Bob, great ideas/thinking on "L&C LINE revived." A similar discussion appeared on here some years back when Capt. Alan Bates was still with us. Alan promoted the idea of cheaper river cruises being shorter duration with, "...passengers pitching in...making own beds etc. etc." There are more problems, issues with that than it would be worth. A crew still needed to clean public areas, cabins, lavatories, cabin baths etc. keeping to sanitary standards. And it doesn't take long for the novelty of this with general passengers quickly wearing off. I've been on more than a few ocean sailing yachts offering passengers "experience on the ship" but within limitations. A few operators quickly learned the legal liability with 'sign-off' forms and insurance.
In the old days most steamboats on the 'night boat runs' were between two major cities: Cincinnati-Louisville, Detroit-Cleveland, New York- Albany, Norfolk-Baltimore, New York-Boston-Newport Rhode Island etc. with major freight shipments being important. Usually between 100 and at most 150 to 200 miles. In off-season months many companies used "winter boats" smaller with lower passenger compliment. There were also the "low water boats" a number of bigger packet companies had on our rivers here.
Jim, any caterer hauling food on board would still need a cook house with general refrigeration, deep freezers, heating, waste disposal, hot/cold running water, crew, prompt washing/sanitizing of cutlery, dishes, food containers, napkins, table linens to man keeping all clean and up to U.S. Public Health standards. You couldn't foist on people cheap paper napkins, table clothes, plastic plates each meal. Alan Bernstein and his B/B RIVERBOATS was one big contractor here providing food for many of the cooperating boats in past 'Tall Stacks' celebrations. Alan and his family, as you know, long in the restaurant, catering business well before going into the river excursion business.
Years ago Betty Blake took a long look at the DELTA QUEEN schedules at the time to study which were good revenue generators. Then the DQ summer season, as Jim Reising, Bob Reynolds and others remember, included those great seven day R/Ts from Cincinnati to Kentucky Lake and return. Other popular trips were the then 10 day R/Ts from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh and return. The other was the 10 day R/T to Reelfoot Lake and return.
Another marketing consideration Betty mulled over were even shorter runs [Similar in form to the old L&C LINE] splitting up the week for a weekend departure from Friday PM to Monday AM down to Louisville or on down returning to Cincinnati on either later Sunday night or Monday morning. Her other scheme was then a Monday departure PM to Friday AM returning to Cincinnati. How many here recall the famous DQ Derby Race cruise? How many remember the Labor Day cruise from Cincinnati R/T? Betty looked at me close, took a drag on her cigarette with a raspy, "We could make money with the 7-Day R/Ts and a two-trip a week plan from Monday to Friday and weekends."
Betty Blake was an innovator for sure. Personally, Betty admitted to me she could only take about four days to six on the boat due to her busy schedule. The R/Ts [Cincinnati round trips] were always popular. When the big travel executives came in from New York to help the company revamp/redesgn the trips [Now termed cruises] many to most became one-way with air connections in and out of originating and terminating ports. Again, what do I know?
*~PS*~> Apparently some of my earlier postings on things have aroused a few people. IF a notice comes in "PRIVATE E=MAIL" etc. there's nothing I can do to open and read it as no return E=Mail has it blocked with all in computer gobbledygook. I'd say if there's a problem with what we write on these threads--or with the poster personally--then step up so we all may know the concern.
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati
11/05/2015 1:20 pm
Round trips
I got in on the end of the round trip era. I took a couple Kentucky Lake rts. In 1977 they did the first Cincy-Pittsburgh rt. That year we also did a 3 day rt to Louisville from Cincy. They were wonderful. By going both directions, there was rarely a part of the river you didn't see on the trip - but of course that assumes passengers were interested in the river, unlike what the Viking V.P. recently pronounced. In the 70s they did quite a few 3 and 4 day trips, which I always recommended to people who weren't sure if they'd like it or not. We had several families on those too, exposing new people to the DQ. But as you said, the experts came in and sold the company on longer one ways with airfare. Another reason for the lengthier trips was the ease of one turnover day a week compared to two, and the need to sell only one trip rather than two. I often solved the one way/airfare problem by booking back to backs to make it a round trip. A couple of times I did St.L-St.P-St.L. and kept my car at Capt. Jim Blum's house. I believe the charge was a sundae at an ice cream place near the north end of downtown. In 1978 they did a St.P-Dubuque rt for 5 days I believe, but since then the only rts have been weekends involving Hannibal or the Derby trip, I believe. Too bad.
11/05/2015 2:15 pm
*More on 'Round Trips*
Judy, your memories posted above 'right on.' Those earlier DELTA QUEEN R/Ts were ideal no matter what city they originated. When the 'one-way' trips came into vogue it caused additional travel/logistical progblems for many. One justification then was that "many passengers have the money and don't mind." But when many major air lines began cutting major and regional flights along with air deregulation real issues came up for many. A number of older passengers found it hard flying, going through security checks, transfers etc. Another 'sign of the times' if you will.
The annual Kentucky Derby trips here in Cincinnati were so popular that one or another big group reserved the boat more than a year in advance. And there were some pretty big high rollers on the Derby trip.
At this past weekend combined S&D/MOR spring business meeting at Shaker Village in Kentucky somebody brought up memories of the big Stanford University and Smithsonian charter trips on the boat. Somebody said those universities really wanted things "done right " with all that entails. And for years the 10 day Cincinnait-Pittsburgh R/T was known as "the old rivermen trip" on the Dq drawing old steamboat veterans going way, way back.
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati
12/05/2015 8:58 pm
Dale, Jim and Judy: I've been off the board for a couple of days traveling home, getting reaquainted with my family, etc. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think Jim's basic idea is a good one. I'm not sure I would try to cut things as bare-bones as Jim mentioned in his first post, mainly due to the issues Dale raises -- you need cleaning staff to handle the cleaning of bathrooms, etc. as well as public areas. I'm also not sure the catered aspect of food service is such a good idea, but certainly one worth investigation. Passenger services crew would not need to be quite as extensive as we've seen lately. Have the maids do a quick make-up of the rooms daily, clean bathroom and replenish supplies as necessary. Maids could also do double duty either in the galley or somewhere else. As far as meal service is concerned, a buffet on sailing night and a more relaxed, sit-down dinner with table service on the last night would be fine and a better option. It would not need to be the service that many are used to on ocean cruises or even DQ-esque style, just a table service with 3 courses - salad, entree and dessert & coffee, with drinks replenished, dishes bussed, etc.
If the RiverBarge were to be utilized (and no Jim, I dont know if it is still aid up in the mothball fleet in Beaumont), then you have the galley infrastructure right there for use by whomever, though having your own crew operate that might be the best bet. As far as buying vs. chartering a towboat, here's my idea: get the MISS NARI with the Riverbarge. That is a proven system with a remote control set-up between the MISS NARI and the barge, allowing pilots to steer from the forward barge (far better visibility). The in the off-season, you could charter the MISS NARI out to another operator for use pushing barges with the proviso it had to be back by such-and-such a date to get her ready for the season with pax.
Turnover day would be for thorough cleaning of rooms and public areas. One could even schedule a day off (a la TWILIGHT) during that week to give the crew one day off a week or use that day to do painting, towboat-style sooging, other maintenance.
With a short run between Louisville and Cinci., any help is always close by, even for supplies, mechanics, etc., etc. Crew could be recruited form those cities and with a day off in there per week, might be a bit more appealing to prospective crew, but still gives the "adventure" factor many crew would crave. As Judy mentioned, you would likely get families aboard at times, exposing many to river cruising who would not normally get that chance.
That's why I liked Jim's idea! I really think it has potential if done right. And on a little short run like that, the operator could be flexible...if something didn't seem to be working after 3 or 4 weeks, change it.
Topic starter
14/05/2015 1:43 pm
By catering the meals, hiring a cleaning crew at a contract price, by contracting with a linen service, etc. you then know what those services are going to cost. Only by knowing the cost can you set rates, you can't set rates on a SWAG. That is why I proposed catering the meals and contracting other services. For example, by contracting with a cater you would know that dinners would be $25.00 a plate, midnight buffet $8.00 and breakfast $12.00, or the cost of feeding the guests would be $45.00 for one, one way passenger.
Let's say you contract with a towing service to provide a boat and crew for $1,000,000 for the 7 month season, that would equate to $34.01 per passenger per trip. And by chartering in power, you wouldn't have to worry about the towboat breaking a crankshaft or breaking a propeller shaft and loosing a wheel, the towing company would assume those risks.
Just playing with some numbers, assuming a 70% occupancy rate as the break even point, the operating cost would be $202.81 per night per passenger. Add in a profit margin of 30%, the rate for a night would be about $270.00. Think people would pay that much?
14/05/2015 4:45 pm
I would like to say that people would bite, but there are just too many variables to give an unequivocal yes! How many people will the boat carry, what sort of entertainment, how will the rooms be furnished, what sort of food will be served, what level of service will the crew be expected to provide, and will tipping the staff be expected? I can go on with questions, but I'm sure you get the gist of what I'm saying.
$270.00 per person is a higher starting fare than most blue-water ships. My last room on a Cunarder with a balcony was less than half that amount per diem. Cunard even paid my gratuities. Also that price is getting close to what the AQ commands at times. People will always want to go on the bigger boat! I also wonder how and to whom will the boat be marketed. Midwesterners seem like a logical choice, but will that high of fare scare them off? Will people come all the way from Maine and California to ride a boat for one or two nights? To make it more attractive for those coming a far distance will pre and post cruise options have to be offered?
Despite those concerns, I tend to think that it could make it if there is a clear business plan and the questions I've posed are answered by management. The price seems a little high for one night, so everything offered would have to be top shelf. Listen to what advice the TWILIGHT people have to say about what makes their operation successful. Management would need to take seriously what cruise enthusiasts have to say about what makes a good cruise and brings them back. Then the crew's job would be to make sure the passengers leave the boat feeling that they got every pennies worth and then some!
I would love to see this sort of trip be offered. I'd certainly be tempted to make one of the cruises. How many others reading this think that they would be able to buy passage at the tariff mentioned and make a trip?
14/05/2015 6:22 pm
L and C Line revived
The $270 day is not that far off. I went on an American Queen Cruise in June 2012 an it was about $283 day for each of us.There were 2. I think it was well worth every penny as it is a great boat an every single detail was handled with absolute perfection.Carole Matthews Pompano Beach Florida PS Ready to go again maybe the Delta Queen sometime?
15/05/2015 1:50 pm
*L&C LINE plans considered...But?*
Morning, Jim, Bob, Frank & Carole,
Jim Reising has done some fine 'ciphering' using his prior experience as Purser on the DELTA QUEEN. All of you present great ideas along with 'food for thought.' Frank correct RE: benefits, costs on the blue water ships. We experiece the same thng with PRINCESS CRUISES offering on-board credits, upgrades, % deductions for shore trips etc. I also receive another nice % off with PRINCESS as a military veteran. Cruise lines today also have all past passengers in their computer bank sending more 'offers, announcements, birthday and holiday greetings. Their shore office rep also phones personally to "be of service." Our L&C LINE thinking also boils down to "you get what you pay for."
The main apporach also is what 'niche or target market' any proposed L&C LINE revival would appeal. Remember, we as steamboat fans are NOT the entire compliment of potential passengers paying the bills. Frank correct on rooms, service etc. Today's wide market also tends to sniff out what they do and don't receive with their disposable income. B/B RIVERBOATS and, I 'think' the TWILIGHT, employed tripping during daylight hours, stopping in late afternoon for passengers nighting over in local hotels. Who here knows more about that than I do? Years back, when the company was considering designs for then then new MISSISSIPPI QUEEN, Betty Blake had lengthy 'surveys' sent out asking what passengers would like to see, what amenities etc. The old steamboat crowd didn't think a swimming pool or other amenities were needed. Others outside of the steamboat family' went for the pool, sauna, diningroom constructed up on higher decks. Those earlier DQ trips including weekends for the Kentucky Derby, Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day weekends sold out totally and fast.
At one time the old DQ passengers--even crew--thought carpeting the DQ lounges etc. a waste of money. Several went so far saying, "When are they going to carpet the boilers?" The former spartan days with the DQ had to change with Mary Greene, Capt. Tom's daughter, well ahead in her thinking. Betty Blake arrived saying, "I was rather disappointed with the DELTA QUEEN inside and knew somehting had to be done." Those her words and not mine.
Another possible glitch is having any L&C LINE boat locked just in the short haul trips. How do you appeal to return passengers thinking of other destinations? One cruise line I won't name, found themselves locked into a certain market appeal with not many 'return passengers.' The "been there done that" thinking became evident. Betty Blake did think of the week being divided up with trips from Friday PM to either late Sunday or early Monday morning; then Monday PM to Friday AM. She still held that "The 7 day R/Ts from Cincinnati to Kentucky Lake were big money makers." Any Cincinnati-Pittsburgh or Cincinnati-Reelfoot Lake trips could possibly be shaved down to 8 days and not ten. Jim, do you think that could be done with your experience on the boat? Also your potential cruise passengers--with exceptions--will still be the older crowd. Fred Way learned his lessons with the BETSY ANN as did the Greenes going way back to 'tramping' the big GREEENE LAND down to the GORDON C. GREENE, CHRIS & TOM and then the DELTA QUEEN. The Greenes also learned years before NOT to push the season into cold weather. The DQ generally laid up here for the winter on/around Thanksgiving not going out again until Mardi Gras. It's all in the financial papers. Well, again, what do I know?
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.
15/05/2015 2:27 pm
You know a good bit, Dale. But I think what Jim and we are dreaming up is a more bare-bones approach, simply between Louisville and Cincy, with more of a "party" atmosphere and a chance to take a river trip without breaking the bank to do it.
Yes, the DQ was quite spartan the first time I saw her...I was in about the fourth grade and they had an "open house" at Memphis to let folks tour the boat. Still no carpet in the lounges, maybe no Texas Lounge ( I can't remember), and I remember my mother commenting, much as Betty Blake did, that she was somewhat disappointed. This would have been in about 1966 or 67.
Maybe this whole "L&C Line" revival is a big pipedream, but it is fun! I have no doubt it would appeal to a certain segment of the market that's out there, but enough to pay the bills, month after month, year after year? Probably not. Still fun to think about, though.
15/05/2015 4:37 pm
My feeling is if I'm paying $270.00 per person/per diem to be on a boat I don't want Hotel 6 or Ramada, I expect The Greenbrier - America's Resort since 1778.
Topic starter
16/05/2015 4:02 pm
When I was doing my figuring, I was assuming a 200 passenger vessel based on a 70% break even load or approx. 140. There were a lot of assumptions in my calculations such as insurance.....based on some knowledge I put in an estimate of $1,000 a day premium during the 7 months the boat is carrying passengers and $600 a day during winter lay-up when the boat would be on "port risk". I assumed borrowing $6 million with a 20 year pay out at a rate of prime plus 3. As we all know prime is at almost all time lows now and this can't last too much longer, so one of the great unknowns is high will interest rates go.
If you are looking for equity between the rate on a cruise ship and a riverboat, then you'll never ride a riverboat because they just can't operate as cheaply; there is some truth in the "economy of scale" theory. Since my estimate of $270 a day hit such an unenthusiastic response ("you can go to Europe cheaper"), the DELTA QUEEN project is bound to fail because in one newspaper article I read one of the owners said they plan on charging an average rate of $365.00 a day and that is for some rooms that have bunk beds.
If you can't make a return on your investment, there's no use doing it. Perhaps, because of the cheapness of ocean cruises, river cruises in the United States are dead, dead, dead.
Topic starter
16/05/2015 5:00 pm
Dale, in response to your question, one of the beauties of operating between Cincinnati and Louisville is flexibility. One week you could offer a three day cruise down to Evansville and back, through the beautiful Oxbow Bends, and the next week from Cincinnati up to Huntington/Ashland and back. So, lets say someone got on in Louisville on Friday night they could ride up to Cincinnati, back to Louisville then on down to Evansville and back to Louisville on Thursday. Or the next week someone could get on in Cincinnati on Saturday, ride to Louisville back to Cincinnati then on up to Huntington, through the heartland of the Ohio Valley and be back in Cincinnati on Thursday.
I haven't worked out the complete logistics, but something like this is highly doable.
Your question about the 10 day Pittsburgh trip, yes now you can easily do it in 7 days. When I was on the 1958 10 day Pittsburgh trip, they had allowed time for all the old locks....how many were there then, 25 or so? We hit the June rise and more than half of the dams were down so the boat ran slow bell most of the way and we were still ahead of schedule. To kill time we ran up the Kanawha to Buffalo.
16/05/2015 9:31 pm
Just a few stray observations from the June 1951 OFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE RAILWAYS (including Airline & Navigation Schedules---not solely for/of US Railroad(s)).
In June 1951 CUNARD listed fares from New York to British Ports for the Queen Elizabeth & Queen Mary as Winter 1st cl $365.00, Summer $375.00; Cabin, Winter $225.00, Summer $235.00; Tourist, Winter $165.00, Summer $170.00.
The Franconia & Scythia: 1st Class Winter $218.00. Tourist Winter $150.00 [no listing for Summer]
For Holland America: The Niew Amsterdam ,
!st Class Winter $295.00, Summer $325.00; Cabin, Winter $200.00, Summer $200.00, Tourist Winter $160.00, Summer $165.00.
Remember these are 1951 dollars. Length of crossing not stated.
Another interesting observation is that American Airlines had one full page of (small print) listing of CITY TICKET OFFICES. How many youngsters here remember City Ticket Offices?...not just for airlines but Railroads also......or Greene Lines Steamers in Cincinnati........the Wharfboat.
17/05/2015 1:25 pm
*Dollar values/City Ticket Offices 1951*
Steamboating colleagues,
Jim Blum is a man who knows where to look, what to find for interesting facts listed above with "Just a few stray observations from June, 1951." Jim, you bet I remember 'City Ticket Offices' here in Cincinnati and other cities large and small, towns. Travel agencies or 'Tourist Offices' as they were called was a big business emerging--on a % basis then like now. All railroad terminals, depots etc. usually had a desk or an agent to book on-going rail, steamboat, steamship tickets--even hotels in U.S. cities and around the world. Most to all big banks had a simialr tourist desk or agent usually prominent on the main banking floor or in an office or alcove nearby. Reservations made by telephone, letter or even ticker tape. No credit cards, so people paid by check, cash or simply charged to your checking account etc. Heavy steamer trunks then could be sent early to the ship pier by Railway Express until passengers arrived for their crossing. Steamship cabins [some] then had a trunk storage alcove with metal tabs and straps to secure against the bulkhead in case of rolling seas--which was common before stabilizers were installed.
Depending on the source: U.S. Federal Reserve, Census Department, official studies and reports, the AVERAGE U.S. wage earner--give or take--brought home on/around $3,000 per year in 1951. This just six years following the end of W.W. II, 1945. Yet, with statistics, you have to note the medium and mode in calculations with averages often waffling + or -. CUNARD rates you mention fascinating. The 1st Class QUEEN MARY/QUEEN ELIZABETH then in U.S. dollars would today be on/around $3,405.00. The 'Winter Rate' would tab out at $1,498.00. In my time sailing on old QUEEN MARY/QUEEN ELIZABETH in the early to late 1960s the fares for R/T Sea/Air tickets was for cabin class about $400 to $470 [I'll have to dig out my tickets to check from the dusty boxes]. Drinks, tips, boat train tickets, sundries all extra naturally. Some of the CUNARD ships, as other lines, sailed in and out of Canadian ports: Montreal, Quebec. Some lines even ran in and out of Boston and not always New York. All three Cincinnati newspapers then I remember each day printed New York and other Port News with listing of ships, passengers to and from Europe. Until air service kicked in you sent mail and other packages by ship called 'Surface.' If you hit it right with a CUNARD or other ship, your mail could be in England or continental Europe within 8 to 10 days; other times longer. Remember also that most to all major steamship lines then were partially to heavily subsidized by their countries for mail contracts. The pivotal year when air travel surpassed surface passenger ships was the year 1958. From then it was all down hill for the great Atlantic liners.
The GREENE LINE did all reservations/ticketing in the offices on the big GL wharfboat here by phone or letter--no computer terminals then. GREENE LINE tickets--at least some I have here--were typed in triplicate: white, pink and a kind of blue or green copy. The passenger copy came to you in white with balance to pay etc. I'm sure Jim Reising, like me, can never forget the GREENE LINE phone number on the wharfboat. For years their number was MAIN 1445. There were no phone area codes then with Cincinnati divided up in districts: MAIN, TRINITY, CENTRAL, WOODBURN, UNIVERSITY etc. etc. How many remember those? Most to all local travel offices would encourage prospective passengers "To phone the GREENE LINE direct or write for their brochures or booking." Many major agencies considered the comany then a "peripheral service." No argument or debate as I heard it constantly.
Jim's ciphering above with comparisons, projections on past/present/future river cruise rates about right. No doubt present/future rates will be higher. The days of recalling early and rather 'cheap' cruise river rates long a thing of the past.
Jim, I have to question your prediction on fate of river cruises. Those able to afford the much higher rates on one company I won't mention doing very, very well. A known fact on ocean cruise ships and some river lines is that the most expensive accommodations usually always book first and earliest over lesser. It's a fact documented. Well, what do I know--or remember? There's that old, cloying line, "It only costs a little more to go first class." Again, "you get what you pay for."
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.