MAL website online

I was afraid if I asked the question "Have you ever seen a trumpeter swan on your steamboat travels?" that it would be taken facetiously. But luckily Carmen brought it up. Has anyone ever seen one, other than maybe on a shore tour to a nature facility?

Steamboating colleagues:
Interesting discussions on MAL and their choice of a new logo/product identity/'niche' market approcah. The only swans I see are the ones on the lake in front of our cabin in northern Michigan. Some are Trumpeters and others Mute Swans. They hang around there as the food supply is good and remain in the winter as long as they can reach open water not frozen. If any of the Trumpeters migrate I'm not sure. We have Loons but they are skittish with human development, noise, boats, dogs barking etc.

I did a little 'tooling' around and find the new 'Swan logo' for MAL to be surprisingly close to the very upscale niche cruise/tour company SWAN-HELLENIC based in Southampton, England. The photo work, text, approach all very similar. Their five star ship MINERVA II is touted as a "floating counrty house." They offer upscale cruises on classic themes in Europe and the Mediterranean along with other world destinations. The MINERVA II is being retired and I have no knowledge if she's to be replaced with a new ship. Frank Prudent may have a lead on that.

It's tricky business making the transition in name, brand and logo for a company. Product identity has recognition in name and logo symbols. MAL have direct Internet booking but agents will probably require time to familiarize themselves with the new company, literature etc. GREENE LINE STEAMERS made it successfully with the brand name DELTA QUEEN STEAMBOAT. This is another matter.

I'll lay my humble head on the block and admit I was somewhat taken aback with the quoted cruise rates. Let's hope MAL finds their market with success for the boats, dedicated officers, crew and support staff. This is going to be very, very interesting.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Judy Patsch;2671 wrote: I was afraid if I asked the question "Have you ever seen a trumpeter swan on your steamboat travels?" that it would be taken facetiously. But luckily Carmen brought it up. Has anyone ever seen one, other than maybe on a shore tour to a nature facility?

Judy
I do not ever remember seeing swans in the wild on any of the rivers that we traveled. Historically speaking they were found in the wild many years ago along the rivers. Unfortunately, at least in Tennessee, the early pioneers et 'em all up. Tastes like chicken. Just like Bald Eagles.

I would like to take this time to say that it has been a pleasure to have served you nice people in the past on the Queen boats as your pilot. Went to the MAL site to find that they are not offering pilot positions in the upcoming season. This saddens me that the new owners are going to try and navigate these vessels on the Western Rivers without pilots.
Guess we will have to go back to riding towboats and just wish the best for the safety of the passengers and crew.
Jim Davis

I have seen trumpter swans----but they were migrating SOUTH from Canada. Pehaps someone should give the people in charge a bird book!

I guess that MAL is taking a page from the history books as to how to operate tourist boats on the Mississippi River System. Seems to me as if MAL's powers that be are going to operate their boats the way the M.V. NEW ORLEANS was operated during 1984, I believe. No first class pilots and a captain with a chart, protractor, compass,ruler and pencil. But the whole book must be read. MAL could learn from its denouement; her first trip up the Mississippi River ended on a sand bar.

Jim, I noticed the same thing when I went there to check. I assumed that they were hiring pilots through some other source (past employees, word of mouth?) If they are not using pilots, sad indeed. It will be the downfall of the operation.

Now is when we need Mary-Bill Bauer to get on here and straighten us out!!!

Bob,

What a great suggestion. I should ring her up and suggest she join us on here! I saw her for the first time in over 10 years at the Howard Museum for the Tchiggfrie Program on the AVALON. She hadn't changed a bit, what a beautiful person she is!

I wonder if she has a computer? Or for that matter if she isn't already a lurker?

~Travis~

Jim, when we were on the EMPRESS OF THE NORTH this past July, I asked why there were no pilots listed in the crew, and the Captain explained to me that they use a crewing system that is apparently more blue water wherein the so-called Chief Mate is actually the Pilot and handles navigation duties. I guess that makes their Second Mate what we would call the First Mate.

It does seem to me that the top of the hierarchy in this company is remarkably, willfully and astonishingly removed from our rivers, its customs, and the boats which they have acquired that run on those rivers. I actually contacted the PR person at one point, begging her to refrain from calling them ships, that it annoys the dickens out of river people, but I guess Lucette Brehm is gone, leaving only Seattle people, and I was apparently a voice in the wilderness. Their west coast operation seems to be rather nifty for those boats out there. Too bad, though, that in many respects it does not translate well to our western rivers and boats, and they don't seem to want to do the research to find out what might make that happen.

The end-of-season layoffs this year were actually terminations, and folks were told they would have to reapply to the new company once the DN contract expired. Regrettably, the situation with navigation and engineers and the unions remains a major question mark. No one knows what the company is going to do about the union situation. Hopefully there will be some word the next week or so. I have no clue how they think they will run these boats without qualified steam engineers who understand the idiosyncracies of these particular steamboats, and pilots -- oops, I guess I mean Chief Mates -- if they don't resolve the union/pension problems. What a shame that they have done such a poor job in communicating with their own people.

Hope your leg is mending, Jim. It would have been nice if we could have visited with you when the MQ tied up with us on the DQ in New Madrid last month. Check out the Chief Mate listings. We gotta get you back out on our boats.

Do the Dover TN ducks count?

Chief Mate

Designated navigation officer; supervises the bridge operations. All applicable certifications by a recognized maritime government body required. Extensive experience with minimum 8-10 years in multiple positions on board ships and solid experience in all navigational electronic and computerized equipment required. Diploma from an accredited maritime training school or facility and fluent English Language skills required. Responsible for the administration of Deck Crew in terms of orderliness, appearance, and readiness for immediate work. Responsible for safety of all persons on board of vessel, passengers and crew.

- Leadership qualities with the ability to give personnel sound instructions
- Possess all documentation as set forth by the USCG and company policies
- Holds FCC Marine Radio Operations license
- Must possess Radar certification (endorsement necessary as per vessel)
- Has proper USCG license that satisfies COI requirements of applicable vessel

How does this compare with what people think of when discussing a Mississippi River System Pilot?

Lil,

It does sound to me that what the new company wants is eliminating the unions and the union pensions as well. That would mean that even though they might re-hire many qualified people, they won't give them the seniority status or accrued time.

That is what I have learned happened in the airline industry as well. While I found my union representation less than helpful during my time with the boats, the types of jobs needed on the boats lend themselves to having a union. There are few jobs where one lives where one works and because of that blurred boundary, I think that there needs to be some safeguards in place. I just don't know if unions are the best way to do that.

However, I think this struggle between union and corporate had been going on long before the new owners. I think it was one of the reasons Delaware North sold the boats. Interestingly, Delaware North was actually a larger employer even though I think that they are both privately held companies.

My tenure with the company is pretty short but I remember 2002 as an interesting year because after the bankruptcy, there was more blending of staff between boats. Up until that time, it did not seem that people shifted as much boat to boat except at officer levels. Under Delaware North, I thought there was a lot more shifting. It will be interesting if that continues under the new owners with two very different regions of the country being served. It was the union who arranged payment of crew transportation. America West advertised that a potential crew member paid their own way to get to the boats. So. if the new owners are successful in eliminating the union aspect, I will be curious how other aspects are also arranged and if they shuffle staff or crew between boats, force longer rotation periods, eliminate pensions, make healthcare coverage a mess (it already was), and whatever else effects crew morale.

On the positive note, a bigger operation tends to have more buying power for some supplies related to operations. Guess, we will have to wait and see.

I guess, Lil, that you were not on the EMPRESS of the NORTH trip that ended up on a sandbar. Remember the pictures earlier this year of her high and dry that "Woody" ran in The Reflector? "Chief Mates" steering, and what about "The War Zone" where First Class Pilots license is still required, it's a recipe for disaster.

I also wonder if MAL's powers that be realize that steamboat engineers need to be licensed. There is no mention in the engineering job description that steamboat engineers need be licensed. The only requirement listed is that engineers have a diploma from a maritime training school. Well, if he were alive, that would leave my father out. He got his Chief's license the time honored apprenticeship putting in your hours way.

I hope that downfall is not preceded by a disaster. The war zone is no place for someone who hasn't got a clue. Well, come to think of it, neither is the rest of the Mississippi River. Union or no union, what are they thinking?!

Well, Frank, your father would have lots of good company from Chief Mates(aka Pilots), as they must "possess a diploma from an accredited maritime training school or similar facility"..... Would a boat be a similar training facility to a maritime school????????? Let's see, of the PILOTS we know, who has a diploma from a school? Lexie has one from Helena - but that is no longer operational is it, so would that qualify? John Davitt and Lisa Streckfus have degrees from northeastern maritime schools... is there anyone currently with the company who holds one of these diplomas???? I didn't look through all the jobs, but is there one for appropriating monies owed to travel agents in a timely manner, Frank?

Judy Patsch;2695 wrote: I didn't look through all the jobs, but is there one for appropriating monies owed to travel agents in a timely manner, Frank?

Yes, that requires a diploma from a three year law school and the passing of the bar exam! 😉

Elaine and Frank, you both have it right about the unions, pilots and engineers.

The engineers on the boats will not hang around if doing so means they will lose, for instance, 23 years vested in pensions. The company can bring in all the green engineers they want with diplomas from a maritime training school, and without one of the oldtimers from the boat around to show them the ropes, they will not have a clue what is necessary and how to get it done in the engine rooms of those boats. And of course, Frank, your father's way, the time honored way of putting your hours in and really learning what you're doing, is the only way it should be done on these boats, with their little quirks. And obviously -- at least to us -- steam engineers need to be licensed.

The pilot situation is rather pitiful. You would think there were enough people in the company from the DQSCo to give the top of the hierarchy a reality check about what it takes, especially since the head of navigation for our three steamboats has experience on the river, but that doesn't seem to be happening right now, which, of course, has led to very low morale, not to mention job searching elsewhere.

Oh, and by the way, Frank, their job requirements would leave out my grandfather too -- he went on the river at age 13 in the pantry and never made it past 7th grade. And yet he had a long and distinguished career as a pilot and anything-else-that-needed-doing-er and was the Vice President and Chief Navigating Officer for the Greene Line for more years than any of the Greenes managed to survive. We can only hope that there is more flexibility in MAL's job descriptions about diploma requirements than they are letting on. Otherwise, we may lose other very experienced masters and pilots.

It does seem to me to be an unfortunate trend that whenever someone buys these boats, they become heady with the concept of change -- regardless of whether that is good for these particular boats, for the crews, or for the passengers. These new changes seem to me to be heading directly toward a search for a new and more affluent clientele which can recognize a 900 count sheet when it sees it and wants a bathrobe and TV/DVD player in their room, and it appears to me that our sturdy little gang of repeat passengers may not count for much in their books. I hope that is not the case with the DQ, that they don't mess with her too much, and that they recognize that there is a base of passengers loyal to that boat, and only that boat (I'm not holding my breath on that one). I hope they can crew her for next year in a way that is decent to the crew and provides for the safety of passengers. I hope they keep her running after next year. I hope a lot of things right now about the DQ and her crew. Only time will tell if this company can figure it out.

Lil,

You pose the question that kept going back and forth the entire time I was with the boats- Does the DQ subsidize her sisters or is it the other way around? I have heard both arguments on that.

The DQ actually has a higher crew to passenger ratio so in theory she is more costly on labor. Yet, since the DQ is more consistantly a full load, she tends to turn higher profits. But, the flip side is the repeat passengers may not be considered the most profitable customers. They certainly do repeat business and have a loyalty that is terrific. They are wonderful PR for the boat. Gee whiz, I would take Helen on the keyboards as a bonus any day of the week. And that is besides great entertainment staff.

But repeat passengers generally spend less on tours, bar bills, or gift shop---at least that is what I am told. I did not really see that to be true. As a matter of fact, I usually found my bartending duties just as busy and lucrative with repeat passengers as relative newcomers to steamboating.

But you post implies a speculation that MAL might indeed leave the DQ as her own niche market boat. If it is successful, long may she steam the rivers. If not, will the TVs, DVDs, 900 thread count sheets etc also be part of the DQ?

I do see labor costs as probably the most major expense of running the operation. So, problems may very well arise if loyalty and seniority are not rewarded.

But, we are all guilty of speculation without enough facts.

My complaint has always been that I can't figure out how much a trip costs. The new web site has not made this any clearer for me. I feel like I am buying a pig in a poke to try and figure out correct estimates. Now, if that is true for me who used to work on the boats, imagine how it is for the person who does see an ad and says, gee, that sounds interesting. How much?

Then it seems to me that a person better have some pretty high limits on their credit card. Will they get the vacation of a lifetime? Yes! Will it become somewhat of an addiction? Probably. Will they experience a mode of travel from another era in time? Without a doubt. Will it probably have a few unexpected delights like sandbars or high water and inability to get under a bridge or an engine malfunction? Maybe.

But the thing of it is- that I still maintain the competition is now within MAL to a large extent. Alternative vacations to places like Macinaw Island in Michigan might be similar time travel. Or a river trip in Europe or other places might be competition. But there are still major differences between blue water and brown water cruising. Yet, MAL also has its Alaska run cruises and those sound pretty exciting too.

Delaware North pulled out because???? Katrina? Unions? Lack of gambling revenue? American Classic Voyages went under because???? 9/11? Expansion to other markets? Unions? --- or it is all coming down to greed and just not enough profit?

Ultimately, like you Lil, I have hopes and dreams that mean all of the boats continue to run.

I have been following this thread with interest. I can't believe the job postings are really correct in their stated requirements, or that there is no latitude. there. Anyone in marine management with any experience at all knows and respects what experience and USCG licenses stand for. I can't believe the company could get financing, etc. without someone in management being well versed and experienced in marine operations. It could be that they all blue water/West Coast experience, but most ship Captains of deep sea experience (IF they are well-experienced!) know they have no knowledge of the MIssissippi River and its tributaries and gladly seek pilotage in unfamiliar areas, even when it is not required. This is why I find it hard to believe they will not be using any experienced piots, masters, mates, etc. In addition, any deep-sea mariner worth his salt would realize after one or two days on one of the Miss. River boats that he/she was in over their heads as far as the operation, and by that I mean not only piloting, but delaing with things like bank landings, landing stage operation, locking and so forth. If the new management is that ignorant and does not listen to their operations people (at least one of whom I know is fully aware of all these things), then they are doomed to fail big-time. As Lexie said, I hope it does not cause a disaster and/or take one for them to realize this simple fact. Let's hope they are being very generic in their job postings and there is a great deal of latitude we are not seeing in a hastily put up web site.

I agree, Bob. I can only think that they simply have not changed the job postings from their (union-free) west coast operations (which do include some rivers and lockings -- and, as Frank reminded us, sandbars). We both know that that one operations manager/captain in navigation should know all this stuff about what is needed to crew our steamboats. It's higher up the ladder that I'm more concerned about. I don't think I have heard the word "boat" come from the president of the company yet. Everything is "ships". I don't think they really know what they have, on the rivers back east, and I'm not sure they are interested in finding out.

There's no question that they are fixing up the AMERICAN QUEEN in style bigtime (yes, the boiler that "never exploded" is repaired), and I guess they will be doing some of the same things with the MQ during her layup. I presume that the TV's in the rooms will have the one feature I really enjoyed on the EMPRESS -- a bridge camera channel so that, when you have to be in the room, you can still see where you are going. From what I hear, the AQ will be drop dead gorgeous when they are done. (Patrick Nauman's fine hand in there ...) What a shame that upstairs in the company, they don't seem to know that they are beautifying actual steamboats.

They know the TV's won't fit in the DQ. I don't know how much, if anything, they will be doing to her in the way of refurbishment during her layup.

I just pray this company doesn't go union busting. That way lies grief for everyone, including the company.

The thing about going to a maritime school is that you get a nearly worthless diploma, and a Coast Guard Merchant Marine Document (license), which can be obtained without going to a school. All that matters to the Coast Guard is the license. That license is the proof that you have done your homework, gotten the experience, and put in enough study time to equal that put in for a Bachelor's Degree in college. Maritime schools just make the process a little easier and more organized. (Actually, I did less work for the college degree.)

Is it possible that the MAL job postings are just worded in such a way as to obscure the obvious need for licensed personnel? I note that the descriptions for engineers says "conducts department operations in compliance with.....requirements of USCG and other regulatory bodies." Complying with USCG requirements would mean, among other things, having licensed steam engineers on watch, wouldn't it? I'm trying to find the positive, I suppose, and am just wondering if much of what looks distressing may just be poor nomenclature and syntax....."chief mate" rather than "pilot", "ships" rather than "boats", etc.....?