Topic starter
28/08/2007 4:11 pm
Greetings From New Orleanas ,
Just wanted to throw something out on the table for discussion , and something that I've often wondered about ; where and why did the nautical terms port & starb'd either evolve or orginate from ?? Over the many years I've been or both foreign and domestic vessels and inquireing from the respective Captains and Pilots on such vessels , I have never really gotton a good or legitamate answer . I've also made this inquirey to some of our " academy " boys whom have joined our pilot ranks in NOBRA , but unfortunately , they either missed that day or they were never exposed to that course . The best response I've received so far is that these terms evolved from the British Royal Navy , who at one time certainly did rule the seas and then as inland river navigation came into play these terms were brought into use or adopted on the river boats and rafts as well . Another answer that I received , was that in the early days of sailing vessels , there was no rudder amidship , on the stern of the vessel , but on the right side of the vessel was located and what was referred to as a " larbard " , and I am not real sure which nationality or language this came from , but was used to steer the sailing vessel . Possibly , the early Viking ships employed this device to steer their vessels , but I am not real sure on this either . Therefore , due to the position of the " larbard " on the right side of the vessel , these vessels had to consequently come alongside on the left side , and on the port side where the city or village was located . Thus , the left or " port side " of the vessel , was where the port of the respective village was and the two became one . Over the years , the term larbard , possibly by the English language was changed to starb'd and ultimately due to necessity and design changes with the aid of naval technology , the rudder came into existance and was placed amidship to accomodate landings on either side of the vessel . To take this thought a step futher , I was always of the opinion , that the old side wheel packets , had serious design flaws from the standpoint that , yes there was a rudder amidship , but for it to become really effective the vessel had to have what is referred to as " head way " , or actual movement through the water for the rudder to become effective . To my knowledge there were no " monkey " rudders on these side wheelers and although they could " twin screw " these packets , I would imagine that due to their size they were just not that effective in conditions of high wind or strong current . Also , having the paddlewheels on the out board sides of the steamber , it exposed them to the drift and snags in the river that of course would cause damage and excessive wear . Also , that would be an additional initial expense to have two wheels and two engines and imagine the additional maintenance on them as well ? Just food for thought folks and I would certainly appreciate your thoughts and comments .
As Always , Smoothe Sailing !
Ted Davisson
28/08/2007 6:26 pm
Starboard is indeed a corruption of the Old Norse for steering board. And as you have noted, northern european ships of the era conventionally had the steer-board mounted on the right hand side. (Mediterranean ships more often used long steering oars that projected more aft.) The other side of the ship was known as larboard until the mid nineteenth century (From Middle English laddeborde or loading side) when the Royal Navy substituted port to eliminate the confusing similarity of pronunciation.
28/08/2007 6:48 pm
Stern, as you may know, is German for star and derives from a time when it was German custom to adorn the transom with a star. Similarly the English who at one time leaned toward lion figureheads, particularly on Royal ships, for a long time referred to the bow as the lion. That useage is centuries gone, but stern has stuck with us.
28/08/2007 7:52 pm
As an additional note, the term posh meaning elegant and ritzy also comes from port and starboard.
Under the old White Star line -- the main passenger line between the UK and the US the nicest rooms where always located 'port out, starboard home' so you specified p.o.s.h when making reservations.
28/08/2007 8:14 pm
I have also seen that attributed to the P & O Line, England to India.
Topic starter
28/08/2007 8:52 pm
Thank You , Gentlemen !
Thank You , Gentlemen
You see folks , this is what it is all about . Simply , shareing information , so that we all may just be a bit more informed so that we may be better able to make intelligent choices and decisions regardless of what the topic of the day may be . My hat is off to one and all that has both read and commented on this subject .
As Always , Smoothe Sailing !
Ted Davisson
29/08/2007 10:54 am
Thanks- for the Fore & Aft on the Port & Starboard
Used to have discussions of this nature when I taught sailing and encouraged creative replies or in other words tall tales were welcomed.
If I get the chance I will will see if I find any notes from that 20 years plus events but I think one of the students gave me a story about port on the left side but the rum was on the right side but since the boats don't use that the same as land. . .can't remember the whole story.
But thanks for the entertaining discussion.
29/08/2007 10:53 pm
Side Wheelers
Ted Davisson;7420 wrote: To my knowledge there were no " monkey " rudders on these side wheelers and although they could " twin screw " these packets , I would imagine that due to their size they were just not that effective in conditions of high wind or strong current . .... Also , that would be an additional initial expense to have two wheels and two engines and imagine the additional maintenance on them as well ? .
As Always , Smoothe Sailing !
Ted Davisson
Ted: I don't know about river boats being "twin screw-able," but I know of a side-wheel ferry that certainly wasn't. The 1890 San Francisco Bay ferry, EUREKA, formerly operated by Southen Pacific is a side-wheeler. It has one large vertical cylinder that is connected via a "walking beam" to a crank shaft that runs across the full width of the boat. A paddle wheel is on each end of the shaft, so, of course, they both always rotate in the same direction. No steering done by these.
She is now at the Hyde Street Pier, part of the collectionof the San Franciso Maritime Museum.
30/08/2007 12:56 pm
Almost all of the blue water paddle steamers had a fixed shaft setup. Prior to the 1840s most of the inland boats used a single engine and flywheel, but they were equipped with clutches at each wheel. You could dis-engage one wheel and back the other. Not quick enough for steering under way, but helpful for maneuvering. Definately not quick, as reversing the engine had to be done without any power assists. The two engine sidewheelers not only had the additional expense of the machinery, but required two engineers to operate, as each engine had it's own throttle. Still, that was the industry standard for almost 50 years.
30/08/2007 5:53 pm
The last two sidewheelers to operate on the Mississippi River System, The ADMIRAL and PRESIDENT each had one engine per wheel.
Dad was fond of telling the story about Capt. Doss on the second ISLAND QUEEN. His orders back to the pilothouse when coming in for a landing might be something like this: OK, Cap, come ahead a lick on the cookhouse side, and back 'er dead slow on the bunkhouse side.
30/08/2007 6:18 pm
Don'tcha just love technical jargon? Good story.