*'Quad Cities companies fill MAJESTIC void.'*

Power of .org board

I got an email from someone in the CELEBRATION BELLE office last week. She had seen our postings about the SPIRIT trip and the Rambling River Rats. She pointed out that they are going to Winona this year and will be going to St. Louis next year. Yes, this is a good market in these Queenless times, even with the economic situation.
One thing I'd like to emphasize, especially if anyone from these boats sees this: DO A COMPLETE ROUND TRIP. For our SPIRIT adventure, we have people coming from as far as NY and Florida, and it makes it more worthwhile to have more than a 3 day trip. About 11 of our 34 pax are doing a 'sort of' round trip by taking the 2 individual day trips back toward Peoria.
At this point, only the TWILIGHT offers true round trips. The JBS used to, but she started staying over a day in Winona and Prairie and then taking a new group back to LaCrosse. And of course, the TWILIGHT does a 2 day rt. The biggest challenge these boat companies have in doing these trips is obtaining hotel rooms along the way, but I imagine they'll be able to work up some deals, considering probable empty rooms these days...

Now, looking ahead, with the info from the CB about St. Louis, here's my thought for a RRR trip next year:
Start with a 2 day TWILIGHT cruise upriver from the QuadCities to Dubuque and back. Then hop on the CELEBRATION BELLE from here to St. Louis. I don't know how long they are planning for that, but I'd guess 3 days/2 nights, so that would make a 5 day/3 night trip. Of course, you could take either segment of the trip too. And if there would be a day in between the TWILIGHT's return and the CB's departure, well we could spend it here in the Middle Upper Mississippi River Museum or I could give you the 'river history' tour of the QuadCities.....

I hope someone with big bucks sees this and realizes there is a market for the overnight boats. Let's remember that Tom Greene and his mother made money during the Great Depression with the G.C.G., enough to buy and refurbish the DQ.

The Quad Cities press release was also featured on Travelpulse yesterday.

Carmen

Cruising during hard times

Bob Reynolds;16067 wrote: I hope someone with big bucks sees this and realizes there is a market for the overnight boats. Let's remember that Tom Greene and his mother made money during the Great Depression with the G.C.G., enough to buy and refurbish the DQ.

Great point, Bob! And during that time the GOLDEN EAGLE was also running overnight trips.
Back then, overseas travel was obviously out. Gas was rationed during WWII so car vacations were out, but... there was the steamboat. It was close, available, and affordable.
These smaller boats are now assuming the roles of the GCG and GE of those olden days - filling a void where there IS a market.
While the DQ prices got out of hand, along with most everything else MAL did, if someone sensible, logical, unbeholden to bottomline stockholders,uninterested in bloating the company beyond its means, and willing to listen to the market (ie. us), came along and bought the QUEENS, they could be run successfully. For while they would be expensive in many people's perspective, they would be doable in others' ( see above: dangerous overseas travel, gas prices). They aren't for a big conglomerate looking to turn a fast big buck, but to an investor able to selfsustain for a while, they could be diamonds in the rough...

The last gasp of Delaware North? The "early booking discounts" were great, actually a huge bargain, a bargain nobody could pass up...

The last three cruises with Majestic? More than double what DN charged for "early booking discounts"...it was disgusting and rough, especially being fully aware what Majestic thought of all us diehard repeaters...I'm still waiting for recognition from MAL that Deb and I even existed, you believe that?

Please, anybody that is enjoying this forum...I'm thinking stateroom prices somewhere between these two above charges...A DQ "G" at say $450 a night? Just a suggestion, want my Visa number?

And there are a mess of us, posters and lurkers, we've all talked about this, we all agree. Until that time, we're all looking at the non-overnight boats as a pretty reasonable substitute. Deb and I can't wait for August, gonna be fun...

*RE: GOLDEN EAGLE/'Hard times.'*
Hi, Judy & steamboating colleagues:
Judy penned good points in her above posting. Seems like 'hard times be with us' reminiscent of memories some of us have as little kids at the end of World War II. The GOLDEN EAGLE was one boat I always wished I been able to 'trip out' on but by her last days I was just a kid. Cincinnati writer/editor Clarke Firestone wrote about the GOLDEN EAGLE a number of times in prose verging on poetry. Firestone was also an old GREENE LINE fan penning additional monographs and stories about the GREENE boats he knew going way, way back. In fact, Firestone was a friend of Capt. Mary B. Greene with them members of a card club here in Hyde Park, Cincinnati. Keith has spoken/written much also about the GE through his long friendship with Miss Ruth Ferris. Great memories and thanks.

Well, what do I know?

Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River.

Judy Patsch;16071 wrote: They aren't for a big conglomerate looking to turn a fast big buck, but to an investor able to selfsustain for a while, they could be diamonds in the rough...

I don't know about anyone else but since the Queens last trip I've bought mega millions lottery tickets for just about every drawing. I've got a business plan roughed out and just waiting to file incorporation papers. (We all gotta dream) No big conglomerate here just one little guy hoping to bring back a piece of history to the rivers where she belongs.

Lucky Mike

Ok, Mike, when you win and buy the boats:
1) Don't plan to build a 5000 pax cruise ship for Hawaii on the DQ's profits.
2) Don't put your headquarters with its bevvy of beauties in a Trump Tower. Something plain along the river might be more practical.
3) Don't buy out all the cruise lines and cruise ships so you'll have a total cruise monopoly. You just might not know what to do with them.
4) Don't take away quality of food and services and replace them with a fluffy bathrobe.
5) Don't build an 800 pax steamboat for river service to augment your current inventory.
6) Don't put each boat in its own region and run it to death and empty cabins. Spread them over the whole system! Out of sight, out of mind!
7) Don't hire some pr firm to give you advice on what the 'people' want - ask the 'people' directly!
8) Don't let that pr firm come up with a name whose acronym means 'bad' in Spanish. How about just paying whomever needs to be paid to become the DQ Steamboat Company again?
9) Don't jack up your prices just to show you are providing a superior product ( or so you think)
10) Don't make a river trip into a land trip - CRUISE during the day. Make your profits off something other than full day shore excursion fares. Gray Line can handle the extensive land stuff.
11) Most importantly: DO NOT replace an eagle with a trumpeter swan, or that swan will be swimming where you can't see it!!!!!!!
You're welcome, in advance, and no consultant fee is charged!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Judy, I needed that chuckle today. As a matter of fact, I laughed out loud, thinking I couldn't have said it better myself.

Way funny, Judy...thanks for the laugh, sad but funny none the less...

If I may, forgive me...
12) If the average age of your customer is over 60 do not assume you'll have a problem in the future. The average age of AARP's customers is over 60 and they're doing quite OK, thankyou.
13) Compasses need not apply...
14) It's hard to justfy serving salmon and lobster on the Mississippi, let alone a swan pastry with a blue glaze.
15) just 'cause it's seen as hokey to you doesn't mean your customers aren't going to be VERY upset if you stop offering it. See #11 above...
16) spend the time to get to know the value of the services you offer before you try to "improve" them.
17) putting lipstick on something that is slow and relaxing will not sell "slow and relaxing". You gotta sell what these boats do best, not that they have "internet cafes" or fitness centers...slow and relaxing is great as long as you are selling it to somebody that is looking for that. Biggest generation in history is looking for that right now or in the very near future.
18) putting somebody that paid rack rates into a stateroom right next door to somebody that got a $99 deal is not going to endear them. Offering your deals to only new customers is poor business sense...your best advertising comes from your best customers, don't you want to reward them?

Bruno,
Recognition. . .what recognition??? We finally hit our 20th trip on the AQ last year and would you believe we actually had the most trips of any of the past passengers!!! Even with that, we did not receive a 20 trip certificate.

We will never regret walking off the Delta Queen and onto the AQ for the Memphis to NOLA trip but there was neither a past passenger discount nor was there a back to back discount. Even though financially illogical, we're sure glad we did it.

I've got to add...
19) DVD players and a capachino machine are NOT acceptable substitutes for a smaller entertainment department.

And adding by edit...
20) A "no facial hair on men" policy doesn't cut it for a venue that touts history...

That WAS good! But seriously folks--in these times I think one ought to market the boat(s) to the China market as "Exotic" Voyages Through America. The upcoming Chinese do have traveling money to spend, and traveling is a rather new experience for them.
(No, I'm not saying they're rubes, just saying they may be an untapped market looking for something to do--like a trip on an American River--one they've probably read about!)
S'
David D.

*China/Asia cruises/'Awakening dragon.'*
Hi, David & steamboating colleagues:
Interesting points in your posting RE: Chinese/Asian market for cruising. A recent travel commentator penned the lead to an article titled, 'Go East, Young Cruise Line' taken from Horace Greeley's famous, "Go West, young man, go West," promoting the growth of America and 'Manifest Destiny.' Many cruise lines and their brands are now testing the waters [*No pun intended] for the Chinese/Asian market. ACA for 'Asian Cruise Association' similar to CLIA for Cruise Lines International, is probing the market to see if the awakening Chinese dragon will respond and bite. Such efforts in the past were slow to tentative as Asian travel tastes were kept rather bland until the rising incomes and expectations of the emerging middle class added spice. At present some 1.3 million cruise departures are recorded there including ports out of Australia. COSTA CRUISES, one of the big 'blue water' companies, is hitting it big following a popular movie in China featuring cruising. Dubai is also moving up as a big market for their own rising monied class. I've seen an increasing number of Asians, mostly from Japan, on the ocean cruises we take one or more times a year along with new money out of Russia and former Eastern block countries. P&O/PRINCESS is also stirring the Chinese tea adding sugar to test the market. Last time in Russia I saw many tour groups who fly in from Asia for visits. Perhaps Franz and Carmen would have insights on this presence aboard European river vessels. No offense intended, but marketers in the past found the Asian 'mind' and 'thinking' different and hard to fathom out [*Oh, another bad pun]. I'll have to check finance/banking sources to see if China still has some currency export regulations outside of their mainland. Russia exercised this for many years as I found out.

Years back a very aggressive Betty Blake set out to cultivate the market for the DELTA QUEEN in tandem with European tour operators with one being LUFTHANSA Air [Sp?] from Germany. Right now the Euro favors against the American green back. I saw many tourist last summer and this winter arriving here from Germany, France, UK, Italy etc. The QUEEN

The cruise industry in general is being hit and hard by the present tanking of the world economy. Ship construction canceled, schedules altered along with vessels redeployed out of some traditional markets long high in profits. One travel consultant termed it drily, "Rough waters ahead for the cruise industry."

If you want to read more about the Chinese/Asian market go to your search engine and type in 'Chinese cruise industry, statistics' and hit GO. Takes some pawing around but in time you will see all and more on this. Just catching up with postings after two busy days here. Trying to keep this short as per suggestions posted on this a while back.

Well, what do I know?

Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River.

*China/Asia cruises/'Awakening dragon No.2'*
Steamboating colleagues:
My pardon for posting a No. 2 to the above but something happened while editing my second paragraph and it went into QUICK POST REPLY and was gone...PFFT!

The QUEEN vessels we know dating back to the earlier days of the DELTA QUEEN, when in operation, always was/were somewhat of a 'niche market' with added effort to sell and market. Europeans and others only knew what they'd been exposed to in Mark Twain's writings or even movies. The Chinese/Asian peferences, even with education, would be a tough sell now as it was in the past.

For years a number of people soundly and roundly declared, "The DELTA QUEEN is NOT a cruise vessel." Well, DUH! she certainly was in competing for the attention and discretionary dollars of the public. Betty Blake would listen to that, wince, smile and move on to the next promo idea. When it comes to the big bucks $$ the boats/ships are all sailing the same waters [*Another poor pun].

Well, what do I know?

Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River.

Dale, something I have noticed in my (now) many years around riverboats, both passenger and towing, is that very few people know about their rivers and what moves on them. It seems to me that folks in the Ohio and Upper MIssissippi River valleys know more about the rivers than anywhere else. You mention folks in Europe and Asia only knowing about Mark Twain, etc., but that is certainly true in the US as well.

We used to get folks on the DQ at New Orleans, and they would be up until well past midnight, marvelling at the commerce on the water, the ships, tows, ferries, riverside industry, etc. I have been told numerous times that all they know was "Mark Twain", etc. and they thought the river was dead. Even in Memphis Tennessee, a river town where I lived the first 50 years of my life, people DO NOT know what goes on there. "Oh, you work on a boat? Do you know Joe Blow?" "No, what boat does he work on?" "Oh, I don;t know, he works on the river -- surely you know him!" When I explain how many boats there are and the geographic area covered by the US Inland Waterways System, they are astounded, but still do not understand. Often people will ask my wife, "Where is Bob right now?" "Oh, they're headed to Nashville" "NASHVILLE?! TENNESSEE?!" Because the Mississippi River does not flow there, they don't think you can get there on a boat. And I'm talking about educated people here, folks with advanced degrees who have traveled, and who have lived in Memphis for years.

My point is, there is a tough sell as far as most of the public (US or otherwise) for river cruising unless they live within 15 miles of a lock and have spent a little time to visit a lock.

Well, you can call me crazy, but I think there is a market for folks that have never read Mark Twain. The countries I am talking about have rivers, great rivers that are still used regularly for transportation—we Americans go and ride on these “exotic” rivers. To those who live in these countries, the rivers are commonplace things—but American rivers can be thought of as “exotic” to them. PLUS you market the experience of seeing the REAL historic America—these aren’t only Cruises to America—they are Cruises Through America! Visits to places like Nashville (World known for music, especially that American Country Music, which is surprisingly popular over there.) and Memphis will be attractive to them, as will other historical places—IF marketed correctly—and hard too! We cannot do the marketing—someone from these countries will have to put the brochures together so that they are targeted correctly. Our point of view and perception of the world—and American history are much different than theirs. For one thing, we are the young country—what we think is historic, is really just yesterday to them!
But, as Dale says, “What do I know?”
S’
David D.

Bob: I feel that I know a bit more than the average person about the Ohio River system but am continually staggered by the immensity of it. Don't know if you can answer this, but you mentioned Nashville. Nashville was serviced by steamboats during the American Civil War. Getting there today involves a high lift into the twin lakes and thence to Nashville. How would they have gotten there back then? Same in getting to Knoxville, Chattanooga etc. There are high lift TVA dams there now but not back then. I think that the lift past Muscle Shoals is nearly 135 feet! My guess is that there were boats above and boats below but only rarely could they go beyond. Google has not helped me much. There is no doubt a source that would help me but I have not found it. Thanks...Cap'n Walnut

Tom: Nashville was only half way up in the "Good Ole Days". Big Packets boats ran up all the way to Burnside, Ky., about mile 500. It's hard to imagine today as Burnside is at the upper end of Lake Cumberland. Big Civil War gunboats ran on the Lower Cumberland, heavy and fairly deep draft. Remember the battle for Fort Doneldson. Except for Summer low water the entire Cumberland had lots of traffic. In the late 1880's the Fed's built Lock & Dam #1 just below Nashville to give the town a steady slackwater harbor. # 2 thru #8 were built about 1890 to 1911 above Nashville up to about where Cordell Hull lock is today. The main obstacle in the Lower river was Harpeth Shoals about mile 40 ??. Locks A thru F were built around 1915 -20 and opened up the Lower for reliable commercial traffic. Lock sizes were 280 x 52, so double and triple locking was common. It was tough going, been there and done that. The first hi-lift was Cheatham at mile 148 and it was still rough going from the mouth up to Cheatham till Barkley was built in 1966. Above Nashville the hi-lifts are Old Hickory at mile 212 and Cordell Hull at mile 308. The Cumberland and Green Rivers are intriqueing stories. Some of the big boys of later years, such as the Houghland, Chotin, Crounse and Hines, had their starts on these rivers.

Bill: Many thanks for your enlightened input. Don't know how you remember all that...not time for you to look it up! Isn't Ingram still there below Nashville?

Tom, Capt. Bill beat me to the punch! He is of course right, as usual. Traffic on the Cumberland kind of died out before WWII, but with the advent of modern tank barging, Hougland and others began utilizing the Cumberland again to move refined petroleum into Nashville. The old locks Capt. Bill mentions were grossly inadequate for modern traffic, so the COE embarked on a program to modernize the Cumberland, similar to what TVA did on the Tennessee. This is the basic thing....I have got to stop myself here! The Tennessee River is my passion, to me the most fascinating waterway on the mMississippi system, and I hope to write an article on it and the Cumberland in some forum in the not-too-distant future.

And yes, Ingram is still very much a presence on the Cumberland. There is almost no traffic above Nashville today, though -- they do take coal up to the Gallatin Steam Plant, and there are locks and a pretty good channel up above to Celina, TN, but the practical commercial head of navigation is Gallatin. There is no real industry and no real reason for commercial navigation above there.

Bob: Thanks to you too, for the information. I'd be interested in anything you'd care to write about the Tennessee or the Cumberland. I seem to remember that there were two separate navigation pools on the Tennessee separated by Muscle Shoals most of the time and not much navigation of the Shoals except when the water was "right" and the captain highly motivated. I am interested in the post civil war era right now. I tried to Google it but got nothing I was looking for. Nothing beats this board for accurate river info