River Pilots - Louden & Zimmer

Oh, Ted, if that picture could only talk!!! Those old men are what I think of when I think of "the good old days" on the DQ. And while they could both be irrascible, I can remember Keith, Lexie and me singing old hymns in the pilothouse with both of them on the Ohio River, 4 part harmony. And to get them started on the galley crew.....watch out!

What some newer riders of the DQ boats may not realize is that prior to the 1990's, First Class Pilots were required everywhere the boat went, not just below Baton Rouge. One cannot even obtain this license above Baton Rouge nowadays, but prior to the new rule, we had to have pilots who were licensed in their respective areas...just anyone with a Master's license could not take a big inspected vessel anywhere.

Capt. Harry Louden was an Ohio River Pilot, though he did have a bit of mileage on the Tennessee (about 25 miles) and the Monongahela (a couple of miles) in order to take the boat to Kentucky Lake and up to the landing in Pittsburgh. Capt. Art Zimmer was primarily an Upper Mississippi River pilot, though he did also run the DQ on the Ohio and the Illinois, where he had first class license. Zimmer also had license to down to Baton Rouge (but not below!) on the Lower. He did not like to go down there and rarely did. Zimmer's license also went up the Cumberland to Nashville. In 1977, we made a trip to Nashville, and Zimmer was the only pilot they could find who had the proper license. Capt. Tommy Utter had the license, but no radar endoresment, and the USCG would not let him stand a watch because of this, even though both the Master (Chengery) and the Mate (Rainbolt) held radar observer endorsements. Utter made the trip as a guest, more or less.

Below are some of the pilotage routes of the older pilots as I remember them:
C.S. "Rip" Ware: Lower Miss, Upper Miss, Ohio from Cairo to Parkersburg (though he never took the DQ above Cincinnati), Tennessee River. Ware also had license up the Red, Black and Ouachita Rivers to Camden, AR! He had the longest stretch of first class pilot license of any of the pilots on the boat in the 1970's.
Oren Russell: Mississippi from St. Louis to New Orleans and the Ohio from Cairo to Cincinnati.
Walter Karnath: Upper Mississippi. His license went to Cairo, but he never rode below St. Louis.
Bill Foley: Upper MIssissippi
Howard Tate: Mississippi from St. Louis to New Orleans. Tate's license also went up the Ohio as far as Louisville, but he did not like the Ohio and only made one trip above Paducah, to my knowledge. Often we would change pilots at Paducah; Louden getting off and Tate getting on, or vice-versa.
Fontain Johnson: Pittsburgh to New Orleans.
Ted Davisson: Lower Mississippi.
Bobby Powell: Pittsburgh to New Orleans and up to St. Louis on the Upper.
Ed Winford: Lower Miss.
Arthur McArthur: Lower Miss. and up to St. Louis
Charlie Fehlig: Mississippi River (Minneapolis to New Orleans)
Joe Gale: Lower Miss. and Ohio.

I'm sure others will chime in on other pilots I have neglected to metion. Ted, remember Rick Blackman? And Capt. Gilbert Manson used to take the boat down to Fort Jackson as Ted's partner.

The biggest thing for newer folks to understand is that we used to change pilots quite often when moving to new areas of the rivers.

Foley and Doc's pilot licenses

Great posting Bob. I remember at times waiting at Paducah or Cairo for our next river pilot to arrive. Those weren't the easiest places to get to back then. I do want to add to Bill Foley's description. He was probably the quietest, most humble pilot we ever knew and he was not one to brag about his license. But here it is, and I believe it is more extensive than even Rip Ware's: "First class pilot on the Mississippi River from Cut-off Light Louisiana(mile 88.8 AHP) to Minneapolis Minnesota; Old River and the Atchafalaya River and Basin from the Mississippi River to the Gulf Intracostal Waterway; Gulf Intracoastal Waterway from Harvey, Louisiana lock to High Island Texas; Calcasieu River between Choupique Island and West Lake Louisiana; Houston Ship Channel from Morgan Point to Sinclair Refining Company Docks Houston Texas; Ohio River from its mouth to Millwood West Virginia; Kanawha River from its mouth to Charleston West Virginia; Illinois River and waterway from its mouth to Chicago Illinois(including Chicago River, Drainage Canal and Harbor)." This is on his license Issue 9 Number 10 December 18, 1973 And here is Doc's pilot's license: "First Class Pilot of steam and motor vessels of any gross tons upon the Ohio River from mile 470.3 to Mile 981.0; on the Tennessee River from mile 0.0 to mile 44.2; on the Lower Mississippi River from mile 953.8 to mile 89.5; on the Cumberland River from mile 0.0 to mile 32.8." And another one of our DQ pilots in the '70s was Ray Pritchard who had UMR and the St. Croix River. I think he was the only St. Croix pilot we had, right? I remember going up there 3 times: the first time we went to Hudson and turned around, the second all the way to Stillwater(23 miles) and we turned around, and the third time when Jim Blum was Master we went to Stillwater and made a shore stop. Beautiful country...

Texas Joke: What's the highest point in Texas? Answer: High Island. (It's probably about 1 foot above sea level.) Wonder why the license stopped there as Galveston and Houston are only a short distance away. Quite often these guys would serve as master when needed. So often you would see Capt. Louden, Mr. Ohio River, in New Orleans. I first met Cappy in Natchez.

And of course, what Cappy would have to say about all this DQ/Oberstar nonsense would be unprintable.

Yes it would be unprintable, Lex! And of course how could I have forgotten YOU!?! Lexie Palmore: Ohio River and Mississippi from St. Louis to New Orleans.

Yes, Judy, Prichard had a license on the St. Croix, but I think Karnath did, too. Butch would know. Prichard's license went to N.O., and he took the boat down there one time while I was on there, and boy, was it a trip! He had not been below Memphis in a LONG time!

As far as a license only to High Island, I wonder about that myself. And, his license went from Morgan's Point (at the head of Galveston Bay) up to Sinclair in town, but he was missing the bay from the ICW to Morgan's Point (25 or so miles) as well as the 40 or 50 miles from High Island to the Houston Ship Channel. My guess would be that he didn't get to draw that when he was in the CG office, and for some reason never went back to get that gap.

Judy, you may be right about the length of Foley's license, but Ware gave him a run for his money. Not included in my description of Ware's license (because the DQ did not go there at the time) is that his license on the Tennessee went to the head of navigation, 652 miles. He also was licensed up the Illinois to Lockport Lock and the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal from the Mississippi River to Lake Pontchartrain. He MAY have been licensed on the Kanawha as well; I can't remember.

Charlie Fehlig obtained license up the Arkansas to take the DQ up there in 1972. His partner was Gary Davis from Alligator, MS, who had had a license up there before the river was improved for navigation. Now don't you know there were some stories told on THAT trip!!!

Got some questions...Bob, you mentioned that "First Class Pilots" used to be required everywhere the boat went, not just "below Baton Rouge". I take this to mean that the pilots on the boats now have a different license, have taken a different test, or something. I guess I'm confused, could you enlighten me? I'm one of those newer riders and I have had the privilege of getting to know some fine pilots and masters on the DQ, the AQ and the MQ and I sense that the pre-1990's pilots had a tougher time to get where they were than today? I sure hope there isn't the suggestion that today's pilots aren't anything but supermen, my word...could you describe the differences between pre-1990 "First Class Pilots" and today's "Pilots"? Are there any First Class Pilots still working for the company? I guess so to travel below Baton Rouge... Is a First Class Pilot working above Baton Rouge a rarity? And I know that time back it was required during the test for a pilot-to-be to draw the complete river from memory, and that requirement is no longer required? And why aren't first class pilots required above Baton Rouge anymore, what changed?

Second question, I have surmised that the Master of the vessel needs to be in command any time the boat is about to touch something, such as a lock or a landing, and also the departing from that "touch". But underway the pilots are actually "in command" and the Master is free to leave the pilothouse. True? If this is the case, is the master allowed to be in command on a river that he isn't licensed for?

Third question, don't all masters have pilot licenses? Isn't that how they got promoted to being Master by being a pilot previously?

Fourth question, the DQ used to go on the Missouri...How far up the Missouri did she go (Sioux City is the last big stop due to Gavins Point, right?), and why did she stop going on the Missouri? And she went on the Missouri for a very short time?

As always, thanks in advance. Great thread...

Pilot License

Greetings From New Orleans ,
First of all , thanks to everyone for their posting on this particular thread and this topic is something that has become rather near and dear to me since the Coast Guard in their infinate wisdom has recended the regulation for vessels and personel to sail under a First Class Pilot's License above Baton Rouge . Both the Govt.'s and Coast Guard's mentality has always amazed me from a number of different perspectives and this act of gross negelence on their part is certainly no different . Personally , I feel that regardless of the route anyone that stands behind the " sticks " of either a ship or a towboat should have a First Class Pilot's License ! If the public at large had any idea of just what goes up and down the river in those chemical tank barges , I think that they would first of all move as far away form the river as possible and then secondly demand from their elected politicians and the Coast Guard that the people that man these vessels have a superior license to what they are getting away with now . For example , someone with an operators license , regardless of local knowledge of the route or area can legally go anywhere on the U.S. waterways with no prior knowledge and with the most dangerous and hazardous chemicals known to man . Does this make a Lick Of Since ???? Go Figure and Go ask your local politicians why they allow this to take place at all times of the day and night and in all times of weather and river stage !! Just food for thought Folks and by the way , my First Class Pilot's License goes from Pilot Town on the Lower Mississippi River and up to Cincinnatti , Ohio on the Ohio river .
Smoothe Sailing !
Ted

Bruno Krause;11236 wrote: Got some questions...Bob, you mentioned that "First Class Pilots" used to be required everywhere the boat went, not just "below Baton Rouge". I take this to mean that the pilots on the boats now have a different license, have taken a different test, or something. I guess I'm confused, could you enlighten me? I'm one of those newer riders and I have had the privilege of getting to know some fine pilots and masters on the DQ, the AQ and the MQ and I sense that the pre-1990's pilots had a tougher time to get where they were than today? I sure hope there isn't the suggestion that today's pilots aren't anything but supermen, my word...could you describe the differences between pre-1990 "First Class Pilots" and today's "Pilots"? Are there any First Class Pilots still working for the company? I guess so to travel below Baton Rouge... Is a First Class Pilot working above Baton Rouge a rarity? And I know that time back it was required during the test for a pilot-to-be to draw the complete river from memory, and that requirement is no longer required? And why aren't first class pilots required above Baton Rouge anymore, what changed?

Second question, I have surmised that the Master of the vessel needs to be in command any time the boat is about to touch something, such as a lock or a landing, and also the departing from that "touch". But underway the pilots are actually "in command" and the Master is free to leave the pilothouse. True? If this is the case, is the master allowed to be in command on a river that he isn't licensed for?

Third question, don't all masters have pilot licenses? Isn't that how they got promoted to being Master by being a pilot previously?

Fourth question, the DQ used to go on the Missouri...How far up the Missouri did she go (Sioux City is the last big stop due to Gavins Point, right?), and why did she stop going on the Missouri? And she went on the Missouri for a very short time?

As always, thanks in advance. Great thread...

Bruno, you can't count! You had 7 questions in your first question! Bob is probably on duty right now, so I'll answer a few of your '4' questions briefly until he appears with better answers. Yes there is a different license now above BR. Yes, the drawing of the river is no longer required for that, which would tend to make one think it might be 'easier' now than earlier to get license. Yes, there are First Class Pilots working for the company. I'd guess most have it. But the difference would be that in earlier days you had to have First Class for the area you were working in, as Bob pointed out. That is why we had so many different pilots. This discussion is not denegrating today's pilots by any means. But there can be occasions now when someone unfamiliar with an area is steering (can you say EON?) That was not previously the case. As to your second/third question about the Master - they aren't licensed for rivers or piloting. Their license is for the tonnage of vessels they may command. Capt. Ernie Wagner had not one mile of pilot license. He was a true Roof Captain.

Bruno,

To my knowledge the DELTA QUEEN has never been above Saint Charles, MO on the Missouri River (if I am wrong in this, please someone jump in and correct me...I can be quite humble if I am wrong!). The last passenger carrying steamboat above Saint Charles, MO on the Missouri was the AVALON in 1960...she ascended to Omaha, NB. that year (again, correct me if I am wrong).

The last overnight riverboat to ascend the Missouri was the RIVERBARGE EXPLORER in 2005 (if I am right...i know it was in the last 3 or 4 years). With the navigation system there facing harsh changes to accomodate the requests of the tree huggers...the river is too shallow for the likes of her ladyship...or for anything else in the current US overnight passenger fleet. Much less the concerns of current, sandbars, and the notorious other hazards to navigation that stream is famous for.

~Travis~

Captains Louden, Zimmer, Ware, etc. worked on towboats where at one time there was NO license required. They all got their First Class Pilot licenses while working on towboats. These men got that license for various reasons: Louden worked for the Corps of Engineers, who required their pilots to be licensed. Ditto for Zimmer, though Zimmer had far more mileage on more river than those he worked for the Corps. Ware and Foley worked in the transportation departments of large oil companies, and those companies encouraged their pilots to get licensed by paying them more for the stretch of river where they were licensed. That was probably the case with Tate, as well. Russell had worked on steamboats early in his career, and also did some work for the Corps. I believe the Corps of Engineers no longer requires First Class Licenses, either. This just gives you an idea of where the pool of pilots came from. Almost all were retired towboat men. The reason they didn't come before retirement is that the money and the living conditions were/are far better on the towboats.

C.W. Stoll had first class license from Ironton, Ohio down to Cairo, Illinois. On the Mississippi his first class license want to Memphis, and up the Wolf River to Patton-Tully's Landing. Tom Kenny had license for the Ohio River, and he did trip work on the DELTA QUEEN when she was running on the upper Ohio. I believe that he also had first class license on the Mississippi too.

When I was a night watchman on the DELTA QUEEN in 1983, Wally Blice worked on the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers. (He was also on the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE for a time back in the early eighties, where he had a different Prudent to contend with down in the engineroom.) Capt. Blice was a Cracker Jack pilot who earned his stripes with The Union Barge Line. Ruben Williams had first class license on the lower Miss, and was another one of the pilots that I was up with in the pilot house.

To me the most amazing license to have was what very few dared to earn, the double enders. Harris Underwood was a licensed master, pilot and engineer. Denny Trone also had pilots license along with an an assistant engineers license. Seems to me as if Arthur "Red" Schletker was also a double ender.

Frank, add the name George W. McBride to your list of double enders. He is one of the last alive. He handled big steamboat engines before he was a teen-ager. His pilot license extends from Pittsburgh to Memphis plus first assistant engineer all waters and, I seem to recall, to 3,000 horsepower. His operators' endorsement is unlimited for towing vessels on the western rivers.

Harris Underwood's license as pilot was amazing by itself: St. Louis to New Orleans on the Mississippi River, almost three hundred miles on the Illinois River and Waterway, Ohio River Cincinnati to Cairo, the entire Tennessee River, and on French Broad River, Holston River, Clinch River and Hiwassee River from mouths to ends of navigation.

Like yours, Travis, the proudest trait of my character is my humility!

Thought from an idle mind: Wasn't it Rip Ware who said: "I goes where the river flows." ?

Yes, indeed, it was!!!!!!!!!!!

Wherever Water Flows...

Tom Craig had a set that went all the way to the sea... Missouri River, too. "Wherever Water Flows, Tom Craig goes," said his business card. He took the AVALON up the Missouri in '60. I had to get off in Jeff City to go back to school. UGH!

Al Kelly extended to Memphis, I believe. Easier to get out of there than Paducah.

One of the very best towboat pilots I knew was Bill Davis of M&G Transport (Mater/Pilot of the J. PAGE HAYDEN, MARK EASTON, DAVIS T. SHEEHEE and others). Bill didn't know what a license looked like until the USCG grandfathered him into an OUTV ticket. Bill knew the lower river better that he did the street in front of his house.

Not the paper, but the person...

My humble 1st Class License only covers 522 miles; from 12 Mile Creek, above Rag Town to Cairo and the junction with the Mississippi. Ain't worth the ink used to print it, but the government keeps renewing it, and has for the past nine issues.

Most if not all of those older pilots at some point in time worked on something steam powered, which meant first class pilot was needed.

It is not necessary to have a first class pilot's license to serve as Master. The pre-requisite for that is a Mate's license and another year of time on board. Anyhow, I guess that's still the case. I renew mine with the minimum of fuss, but each time, they add some new requirement for renewal. My husband was forced to go to the CG office south of Houston to get his fingerprints on a computer. The old fingerprints would not do. He reminded them that fingerprints don't change, but that did not compute, no pun intended.

Frank,
Elisabeth Streckfuss has both.
She was a third and second engineer for me on the MQ. She was a pilot with me on the DQ.
Dennis

A random thought or two:

1) A previous owner of the Delta Queen Company has their fingerprints on the death of a First Class Pilot License (above Baton Rouge). Federal Register notice was printed. apparently there was little or no objection so the deed was announced in the Federal Register---I think, from my feeble memory--26 December 1996.

2) The Department of Homeboy Security has mandated not only the fingerprint/ID business but also the TWIC (Transportation Worker identity Card) Card. If y'all license holders haven't enrolled just yet y'all might give it some thought to do so----and yes, another set of fingerprints required as of this writing. Even though the implementation date has been extended, beat the drop dead date.

3) For those who hold FCP license be sure to send your Annual Physical Examination Report to the National Maritime Center.

4) Enjoy the 8 1/2in x 11in License paper hanging on your wall as it is soon to disappear into history.

5) If anyone has a new US 2007 Passport be sure to check out the Steamboat and Steam Locomotive pages. Pretty nifty.

Jim, how much first class license do you have? Seems to me as if I remember seeing first class license on the Ohio, Mississippi, and Tennessee last time I saw it hanging in the license case of the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE.

Lisa taught marine engineering at the Houston Marine school in New Orleans and was quite respected. She was also a director of marine ops at more than one casino. I ran across a cocky deep sea captain type who tried to cross her on one of the gamlin' boats; by the time he limped into our place he was hobbling around about a foot shorter than he'd been before he had a run-in with Ms. S. He never knew what hit him.

Then there was a book-smart KP grad who had Master and Engineerng licenses on our boat. Only engineer I ever met who "stood" watch in a spotless white shirt and shoulder boards. No grease under those nails.

Thanks for that timely information. Now I KNOW I'm not going to renew my license in 2011. Maybe I should hang my license in a nearby museum.

Carrol S Ware

well

Bob Reynolds;11231 wrote: What some newer riders of the DQ boats may not realize is that prior to the 1990's, First Class Pilots were required everywhere the boat went, not just below Baton Rouge. One cannot even obtain this license above Baton Rouge nowadays, but prior to the new rule, we had to have pilots who were licensed in their respective areas...just anyone with a Master's license could not take a big inspected vessel anywhere.

Capt. Harry Louden was an Ohio River Pilot, though he did have a bit of mileage on the Tennessee (about 25 miles) and the Monongahela (a couple of miles) in order to take the boat to Kentucky Lake and up to the landing in Pittsburgh. Capt. Art Zimmer was primarily an Upper Mississippi River pilot, though he did also run the DQ on the Ohio and the Illinois, where he had first class license. Zimmer also had license to down to Baton Rouge (but not below!) on the Lower. He did not like to go down there and rarely did. Zimmer's license also went up the Cumberland to Nashville. In 1977, we made a trip to Nashville, and Zimmer was the only pilot they could find who had the proper license. Capt. Tommy Utter had the license, but no radar endoresment, and the USCG would not let him stand a watch because of this, even though both the Master (Chengery) and the Mate (Rainbolt) held radar observer endorsements. Utter made the trip as a guest, more or less.

Below are some of the pilotage routes of the older pilots as I remember them:
C.S. "Rip" Ware: Lower Miss, Upper Miss, Ohio from Cairo to Parkersburg (though he never took the DQ above Cincinnati), Tennessee River. Ware also had license up the Red, Black and Ouachita Rivers to Camden, AR! He had the longest stretch of first class pilot license of any of the pilots on the boat in the 1970's.
Oren Russell: Mississippi from St. Louis to New Orleans and the Ohio from Cairo to Cincinnati.
Walter Karnath: Upper Mississippi. His license went to Cairo, but he never rode below St. Louis.
Bill Foley: Upper MIssissippi
Howard Tate: Mississippi from St. Louis to New Orleans. Tate's license also went up the Ohio as far as Louisville, but he did not like the Ohio and only made one trip above Paducah, to my knowledge. Often we would change pilots at Paducah; Louden getting off and Tate getting on, or vice-versa.
Fontain Johnson: Pittsburgh to New Orleans.
Ted Davisson: Lower Mississippi.
Bobby Powell: Pittsburgh to New Orleans and up to St. Louis on the Upper.
Ed Winford: Lower Miss.
Arthur McArthur: Lower Miss. and up to St. Louis
Charlie Fehlig: Mississippi River (Minneapolis to New Orleans)
Joe Gale: Lower Miss. and Ohio.

I'm sure others will chime in on other pilots I have neglected to metion. Ted, remember Rick Blackman? And Capt. Gilbert Manson used to take the boat down to Fort Jackson as Ted's partner.

The biggest thing for newer folks to understand is that we used to change pilots quite often when moving to new areas of the rivers.

well Robert when your works your Pleasure, Visibility's good and ya love everybody, man there aint nuthin better