Steam along the river

Judy, you are on the right track with your thoughts. This has been discussed on this board before. One thing you neglected to mention is the U.S. Coast Guard and their oversight of passenger vessels, both diesel and steam. While I know there are agencies that oversee the safety of the steam and other aspects of railroads, I think they may be not quite as demanding as the USCG. This is not to berate the USCG in any way -- if they (or some other agency) were not involved, greed would eventually allow safety to take a back seat to expediency and profit. While one might get away with that for a while, one accident and the whole thing would come crashing down.

Insurance is another big headache, both for rail and marine specialty excursions. Jim Herron is the man to help sort all this out.

And, as we all know, to run a huge boat like the PRESIDENT or ADMIRAL, with passenger capacities in the thousands, takes thousands of folks willing to pony up the fare and be there at the time the boat can sail. Advertising and marketing figure prominently as well. Add getting together the necessary qualified officers and crew, and we're talking real money. Throw in an episode of high water or bad weather that causes the boat(s) to miss getting to the venue, and you have a real problem -- we saw this with the Grand Excursion.

Additionally, with the railroads, you have a large corporation with deep pockets with the equipment, infrastructure, suppliers, insurance and legal departments, personnel, and media access. If there were a big boat company that owned a veseel and they were interested in doing something like this and donating their resources, it would be far easier.

I wish it were easier to pull off something like this.

Yes, Judy is right about the number of railfans vs: the number of steamboat or river fans. But remember, the railroads reach virtually everywhere across the country so many more people are exposed to railroads.

This train festival is the second one. The first was last year in Michigan. Neither was an easy task to put together. For instance, some major railroads won't allow steam locomotives to run on their tracks. The event going on this weekend involves a friendly railroad that owns two steamers that it imported from China and is running at the festival. The other big engine is Nickel Plate Road 765, a 2-8-4 that is owned and operated by a private non-profit group at Ft. Wayne, IN. The other locomotives at the event are smaller, privately owned engines. All of them have to be maintained to Federal Railway Administration standards in order to operate. All have dedicated volunteer assistance in labor and financial contributions. The two Chinese engines were bought for re-sale but it seems that no buyers have come forward.

There are liability insurance requirements that vary from railroad to railroad with coverage in the millions. However, a few steam engines are "Amtrak certified" and pull occasional excursions using Amtrak's coverage. Those include a Santa Fe 4-8-4 and the Southern Pacific "Daylight" 4-8-4 which just ran trips for the National Railway Historical Society convention a few days ago in the Pacific Northwest. Each of these engines has it's own organization and management. One other Amtrak approved engine, Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 261, is currently undergoing repairs at St. Paul and will return to service.

Union Pacific has their own steam operation with two engines. Both have operated this year. Norfolk Southern is getting back into the steam excursion operation with two engines owned by the Tennessee Valley RR Museum in Chattanooga. NS had a previous steam operation from 1966 to 1994. I'm really glad they are coming back. If you're in Chattanooga to see the DQ you should also visit the TVRM and ride one of their trains.

While these railroads are receptive to steam on an occasional basis, most are not doing it out of their own pockets. All movement expenses are charged to the locomotives or sponsors.
The Santa Fe engine mentioned above was invited to the Train Festival but costs to bring it from LA made it prohibitive. Last year, the Daylight engine ran from Portland, OR to Michigan but the costs ate up almost every dollar collected for the event.

If you're in the area this weekend, please attend the event as the displays and excursions are going to be great.

-Jim Herron

Dont forget the SP&S 700 Jim! She too is Amtrak certified and a personal favorite of mine. The Daylight was my favorite train when I was a young boy, but something about that big Baldwin makes me love the 700. She's one fine example of brute power and mechanical beauty. A classic steam engine for sure. Too bad she's from a lesser known railroad and is often overshadowed by her more famours stablemate. The 700 is actually a full roller bearing engine, and you would think more favorable to run excursions. All boils down to money though when it comes to running those big engines, and the 4449 can draw a bigger crowd. She also has more crew to help run her.

Thats the one thing that is often forgotten, these big engines can't really pay for themselves on short branch line train rides, so they have to take big long distance trips to cover all the expenses. However that requires a qualified crew, and there just aren't enough of them. The 700 crew had a very tough time when they ran the engine over to Montana because the all volunteer crew just didn't have enough people with that much time off from work to run her! I do believe some 4449 people helped out on that trip.

We were there

Richard and I attended the Train Festival this morning while the weather was relatively cool--only 90 degrees. Jim is right. The displays, trains and vendors were great. The staff and volunteers were extremely helpful. This evening we were delighted to hear that while there are still general admission tickets available, all the excursions are sold out!!!

We hope to return on Saturday and look forward to the Sunday riverboat/train round trip to Muscatine.

These locomotives are running in spite of it all. Their mere existance is nothing short of miraculous. Those who run these things have to slay all sorts of dragons to do so.

One thing that may help in some cases is that these locomotives have permanent locations, have become a staple of someone's economy or something for a community to brag about or use to attract tourists.

Many of the steamboats still running are local excursion boats.

Which of the NS engines are going to be running?

Lexie, the NS is going to use Southern Railway engines 2-8-0 630 and 2-8-2 4501. Both were used in the original Southern Railway steam program that began in 1966 with 4501. Both are hand fired coal burners.

The 630 has already made a couple of trial runs and is in regular service at TVRM now.

The 4501 is currently undergoing restoration in TVRM's shop which you can tour if you visit the museum. Rumors are out that the first passenger main line excursion will be in November. NS is not expected to run the volume of excursions that they ran prior to the 1994 shut down.

There are a lot fans who have their fingers crossed that this will lead to the restoration of Norfolk and Western J class 4-8-4 611 which was returned to the Virginia Transportation Museum in Roanoke, VA after it's last excursion in December, 1994.

A first in 50 years

I stopped by the festival grounds today and realized that with the CELEBRATION BELLE running excursions from our levee, this is the first time in exactly 50 years that has happened - the AVALON's last visit was in the summer of 1961 (Dave T. would know the exact date). Would that it could be a regular occurrence! As I went over the Centennial Bridge, the CB passed underneath and I couldn't see an empty spot on her outer deck...

The RI levee from Davenport

1) The CELEBRATION BELLE at the Rock Island levee, first excursion boat there in 50 years.
2) The AVALON's bow was just below the CB's paddlewheel. For those familiar with RI, the Armory was torn down and a riverfront park stands in its place. It was just upriver of the CB. Of course, back in the AVALON and DQ days the floodwall wasn't there. It went up in 1964, just in time for the Great Flood of '65.
3) Guess where the steam locomotives are?

NRHS

I was a past member of the NorthStar Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. I will say that railroad fanatics are that - fanatical. This is not a slight. Unfortunately, railroad fanatics greatly outnumber riverboat fanatics. Part of this, I think, is the versatility for photographers. How many boats can stop in the middle of their excursions, disembark the passengers for a half hour so they can take photos, and then resume the excursion? Railroads do this all the time.

Railroads are also not dependent upon the river. Granted they still need steel wheels on steel rails in order to operate, but there is plenty of trackage available to run on. Operators need to make the right deals in order to operate over those lines. Yes, the Federal Railroad Administration can be a pain, but the regulations are less burdensome than the USCG's oftentimes. Insurance is going to kill you either way, as has been previously mentioned.

I also think, in today's day and age, that you have a lot more retired railroad workers than you have riverboat workers, who are able to help out. At one time in the past, I thought about investing in a dinner train in the MSP area to replace the defunct Minnesota Zephyr. I had plenty of former railroad people who were willing to pitch in and help. The economy just wasn't right to get into that when I looked at it (at the beginning of this current recession), and I didn't want comparisons to the Zephyr's bad service and poor quality food - therefore I decided to wait.

Now I've set my sights on the Str. Mamie S. Barrett. It's a lot more complicated project than a dinner train. Plus the bodies of those who are willing to "pitch in and help" are in much smaller numbers than their railroad community. Please don't take this as a gripe, as it is not intended to be construed that way.

Lastly, I think railroads today are at the point where steamboats were 50 years ago. I've read many a persons fond recollection of some of the classic vessels that were operating and the many fun times that were had aboard them. Especially with the loss of so many vessels like the Mississippi Queen, Admiral, Becky Thatcher among others, there are more and more stories about the glory days of excursions.

Fifty years from now, in 2061, is it going to be the same with the railroads? Are we going to mourn the loss of the 4-8-8-4s that Jim Herron mentioned or the Milwaukee Road 261, which I've ridden a few times? Perhaps.

Maybe in 2061 people will be buying aerial excursions in 737s, DC3s and some historic military aircraft like the C-130s, because something replaces the airplane as the staple of transportation and makes it a novelty like steamboats and steam rail? Just an observation.