Greene Line Wharfboat in Covington

Hauling cars out

Keith Norrington;18770 wrote: Shipyard, I've heard Capt. Doc Hawley talk about some "anxious moments" on the old GL wharfboat, when it was feared a sinking was imminent due to those leaky old barges. And, in 1967 when the Markland pool was literally drained due to a barge accident, Doc said the old wharfboat was high and dry before it could be pulled out into what little water was available! And then there was the fear that any "yanking" by a towboat could cause the fragile old wharfboat to come apart and sink. Thus it was a scary time to those in charge for all the nice automobiles left on board by DQ passengers who were happily cruising somewhere and had no idea their cars were in peril!

The Greene Line also had a wharfboat at Louisville for years, which looked quite similar to the Cincinnati wharfboat. What became of it? Alan????

Doc tells of a time during the year he was VP when he, Betty, and some others hastily drove those passenger cars uptown just before a big rise came, but I can't remember the details. I'll have to ask him when I'm in NOLA the 21-26.

My father always said that the Louisville wharfboat was much nicer than the Cincy one. The last time I saw the old Louisville wharfboat, ACBL had her as a landing boat above Wilkinson Point (SP?) on the right decending shore just above Baton Rouge. That was probably 20 years ago now, so I'd be surprised if it's still there.

*RE: Hauling cars/Tour buses out.*
Steamboating colleagues:
Great memories/postings above and below on the big GREENE LINE wharfboat with terrific photos before and after the sinking. Cars on the Public Landing were also subject to winter ice on those granite cobbles. As posted several years back, one day a big 'Greyhound' bus with arriving DQ passengers pulled in with luggage peparing for a trip. I'd come down from classes at U.C. just to see police cars, fire equipment screaming down Broadway. The brakes failed on the bus and KERPLASH in it went with bubbles still coming to the surface just under the up-river end where JOHNSN PARTY BOATS had a small office on the lower level. They did a head count finding all the passengers and luggage were accounted for. Two big wreckers came down with Cincinnati Fire Dept. divers to hook and haul all out. The bus inched up foot by foot with water gushing out. The driver stood with a forlorn look leaning against a police car.

In the winter a sudden rain with ice/sleet would work under the auto wheels parked on the sloped landing. Slowly, as if pulled by a magnet, they would slide down--some in a slow circular motion--into the water. Again KERPLASH, gurgle.

Not only did the immense size of the GL wharboat fascinate me, but the lettering in large black letters on the interior above each of the outside sliding doors . Above was painted: LOUISVILLE, PORTSMOUTH, CHARLESTON, CINCINNATI where packet freight had been dropped for delivery on or off the boats. A number of big heavy-weight scales on rusty iron rollers and rolling carts still evident. There were two steamboat pitmans stored and I always wondered what boats they were removed from or--possibly--intended as emergency replacements. I vaguely also recall heat in the winter for the offices above supplied by a large coal furnace. Who remembers that? There was running water for office lavatories, electricity and telephone lines which no doubt were a problem when the wharfboat needed moving in and out.

On the lower end the little 'paint shop' of wood with windows holding tools, paint etc. Across from that heavy wood frames stocked with various sizes of lumber for use along with a few blue 55 gal. drums containing oil, or whatever.

Betty Blake used to laugh telling about the day the wharfboat sank down river. The new owner had called her with the news and she laughed, "Thank God--that's out of both of our hair!" Prior, when moved to Kentucky, Betty and company had contracted with CARLISLE CONSTRUCTION CO. to sink cement deadmen to secure the wharfboat. There were always concerns about the wharfboat on the Kentucky side subject to massive run off with heavy drift from the Licking River. I only saw the wharfboat there once just in the days following return here from the grand and glorious Marine Corps. After that brief vision it was gone forever. Painting GREENE LINE STEAMERS on the roof was a pain due to the ripple of the pressed metal requiring brushes to be applied over and down in the hollows. There were frequent church river baptisms in the water near those landing stages.

Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick,
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River.

Cap'n Mac was evidently in charge of the wharf boat...probably his "retirement job". That would mean that he would haul in and spar out with the various stages of the river. He no doubt did a bit of pumping now and again on the sand flats under the wharf. I doubt that he lived there (where?) and when he was off-duty, who watched the store? Physically, how would he do the sparring out and hauling in? I think it was said to be a solo operation. How could he do it alone? Cap'n Walnut

*RE: Cap'n Mack/Sparring/Helper.*
Hi, Tom & steamboating colleagues:
No doubt Shipyard, Doc Hawley, and others dating back then, can recall how Cap'n Mack did the wharfboat 'sparring.' I never saw it done but wonder if there may have been electric drive motors to assist with the capstans on the upper/lower ends? Things you were around at the time but often didn't take note of. One of those steamboat pitmans was stored close to the capstan in the open space under the upper--or east--end.

GL Purser Bob McCann mentioned there was an "another man hired" to assist Cap'n Mack. Again, I never saw this gentleman. One time the office staff came to work early in the morning finding the outside office door locked--from the inside. They got in, looked around in wonder, but never knew what happened instituting a seek-and-search. The man never came back to work nor was seen again. How long ago this was Bob never said. Could this be another 'river legend?' Bob was on site the day the wharfboat was moved and later said, "There's a lot more on the bottom of the river under it than just junk."

Keith is on the money RE: that classic black/white photo of Cap'n Mac. A real award winner receiving much wide attention. Always wondered what kind of camera and photo developing technique used. Could have been just a lucky 'look, think and snap' event--later termed a 'KODAK moment.' The first big art show was done in conjunction with GREENE LINE STEAMERS 75th Anniversary back in 1965 with open house for the general public/invited guests. Presented to visitors was the now classic 'From the wake of our past come many moments to remember...' book as a souvenir.

Well, what do I know?
R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River

Dale: Interesting post. As far as the camera used in that classic photograph, I'd say that it was the "standard" press photographer's friend of the day...the Speed Graphic. I'm still using Randy's Crown Graphic (a little later model but still a BIG camera taking 4 x 5 cut film and a BIG flash bulb that could light Paul Brown Stadium). I know what "small" camera Ran used because I bought it from Randy after Ran died. It was a Pentax with some Takumar tack-sharp screw-mount lenses. One lens is a Carl Zeis 135 mm that Randy made a shot of a monkey at the Cincy Zoo that won him an award (I still have the lens) There was no meter in it or with it. I usta use it with Tri-X Kodak b&w film , guess at the exposure and got excellent results...at least I thought so back then!! I usta cover events that interested me back in the 60s and early 70s, take photos with Ran's rig and sell them to the Kentucky Post. One was of Steamer 4501...Jim Herron will know what that is. Franz has posted some of the DELTA QUEEN for me taken when she returned from the race with the BOL. Cap'n Walnut

Tom,
4501; I imagine more than a few of us know that Southern beauty. Clayton's baby!
S'
David D.

David: This is not steamboats but she was a southern beauty alright, but I have heard that she is no longer in Southern livery. Baldwin 1911, she was and is a favorite of mine. The last time I saw her, was in the Southern yards just yards from the Ohio bank. She was totally alone and I climbed into her cab but could feel (and see) that she was being kept in steam overnight... her fires banked. Cap'n Walnut

The Cincinnati Railroad Club sponsored quite a few excursions with the 4501, which now resides at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum I do believe. Back about 1967 a local prominent attorney in Patent causes, the late Gibson Yungblut, was often known to use J Wax to polish the green boiler lagging as the 4501 was being prepared to run an excursion.

The Claytor brothers were also Steamboat fans. One was quite a collector of very rare electric model trains made in Cincinnati by the Carlisle & Finch company. Off the top of my furless head I don't remember when C & F stopped making toy trains and concentrated on the marine lighting business. I believe they are still located in an area not far from the old Cincinnati Car Company plant on Spring Grove Avenue.

For those in the Cincy area I understand there is going to be a really nifty Car Show this Sunday (11 Oct) at Spring Grove Cemetery---I know strange place for a car show-- but it draws lots of automobiles and a big crowd. At least two vintage buses will be on display courtesy of the Cincinnati Transit Historical Association.

Thanks for that information Frank. Herewith is a photo of the Louisville wharf long ago showing a wharfboat for Commercial Barge Line. Could this be the one you saw near Baton Rouge? In the distance is the U.S. Coast Guard station, now the wharfboat for the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE.

No, that's not it. It was clearly the old Greene Line wharf down above Free ------ Point. Somewhere in storage with old QE2, TUTSHI, DQ and MQ slides I have a photo of it. Now to have the time to go find it.

Yeah, those words SOMEWHERE and FIND are key operatives when talking about our great big collections of steamboat stuff! Thanks!

Wow Cap'n, that kind of opportunity does not happen out here--everything (practically) is oil fired, so someone is always on duty during the night watching the spot fire. And the big railroad have security folks walking around, keeping folks away. Back in '77 I was able to climb into the cab of SP 4449 and visit with the hostler one evening, but times were different then!
Last I heard 4501 needs a lot of work, at least flues to run again, but then the rails out here don't ring loudly! 🙂
S'
David D.

David: I gotta say that I was amazed. Mark Dreyer was head of the Emery sample dept and he alerted me to where 4501 was "sleeping". He was, and is a railfan and how he knew about it I don't remember. But Mark was a volunteer fireman and had a scanner in his office and talked to all fire departments locally. Since fire departments had to water 4501's tender (no R/R water towers anymore), Ludlow's F/D likely knew where she was. She was NOT in plain sight but back in the yard among buildings and spotted railcars. Since it was more or less on my way home, I stopped off there. I had made cab visits to 4501 before when she had a crew up in the cab...but never under way. I did do a cab ride in L&N's 152 a few years ago. Been "champing at the bit" to run my "new" steamer but either rain or the river's tore up...Cap'n Walnut

Bridge pics

Here's a link to 37 pics we've collected on the Cincinnati-Covington Roebling Suspension Bridge:

Willie and Buster's Whirlwind Tour of the World - Roebling Bridge

Judy, I do not know where the Louisville wharfboat went. I often visited it after school, circa 1938-1941, and watched the rousters load the Tom and Chris Greene. Unloading was done while I was in school, so I never saw that. A big custormer was Proctor & Gamble,so the wharfboat received truckloads of soap. American-Standard shipped a world of bathtubs, wash basins, etc., the other way. The rousters ran, and I mean RAN, all day carrying unbelievable loads. The wharboat master carried a cane as a sort of badge of office.
Promptly at 5:00 pm the boat left. Oddly, the Tom always backed out, straightened up and then lit out for Cincinnati. On the Chris, they held a sternline and the pilot backed against it to kick the head out, then took off without backing into the channel.
It was very busy, colorful and harsh. After the boat left the craps game started.

Yes, Southern Ry's 4501 is at the Tennessee Valley RR Museum in Chattanooga and in need of new flues and other repairs. The news is that TVRM is thinking of doing just that but its anyone's guess as to how long it will take. They regularly run an ex-U S Army 2-8-0 610 and have been rebuilding Southern 630, another 2-8-0. It may be in service by now or soon. If you go to Chattanooga to see the DQ, you really should visit TVRM and take a ride on their train. I believe steam engines pull it on weekends. They also run day long trips so check out their web site for schedules.

4501 was the first of a multitude of steam engines placed back in service beginning in 1966 for excursion trains that lasted until December, 1994 when Norfolk Southern shut them down. And yes, it was the Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert who made all of that possible. Graham was VP-Law of the Southern RY and later President of SR before becoming Secretary of the Navy (under Carter) and President of Amtrak. Robert became President and CEO of Norfolk Southern, having come from N&W. The locomotives they operated included Southern 4501 (2-8-2), 630 and 722 (2-8-0's),
Ky Ry Museum's C&O 2-8-4 2716, Canadian Pacific 4-6-4 2839, Texas & Pacific 2-10-4 610, Norfolk & Western 4-8-4 611 and 2-6-6-4 1218. Other engines that ran on SR, N&W or NS rails during those years included Southern Pacific 4-8-4 4449, American Freedom Train 1 (a Reading 4-8-4), NKP 2-8-4 765, NKP 2-8-2 587, Frisco 4-8-2 1522,
Ky Ry Museum's L&N 4-6-2 152, Savanna & Atlanta 4-6-2 750, Atlanta & West Point 4-6-2 290 and LNER 4-6-2 4472 the Flying Scotsman. There may have been more. To say the Claytor brothers are missed is a huge understatement.

I was a volunteer crew member on 4501 a few times, cutting coal (the dirtiest job in railroading) and oiling or greasing the engine. 4501 was pretty but not "modern". She required climbing over the frame under the boiler and down under the frame to pack her boxes with grease cakes after each day of running. Greasing the rods and oiling the bearings and filling the lubricator were done at some stops en-route. Cutting coal means a man has to ride in the coal pile atop the tender and push the coal down to the fireman so he can reach it. I have a film I shot from the top of the tender as the engine made it's way from Jacksonville to Valdosta and back.

4501 was Southern's first Mikado and had been sold to the Ky & Tennessee Ry at Stearns, Ky in the 1950's. A man from Chattanooga (Paul Merriman) bought it and asked Southern to let him take it Chattanooga under steam. They flatly refused but he kept asking different executives until he discovered Graham Claytor who set the trip up. That was the crack in the door and led to Southern's "steam program" starting up in 1966. Graham died in the early 1990's and Robert followed a couple of years later. It wasn't much longer before the new president of Norfolk Southern cancelled the program and sold off the steam shop equipment, materials, coaches and everything else to make sure no steam would operate again.

One of Robert Claytor's sons, Preston, has a steam launch named "Pocahontas" berthed in one of the marinas along River Road in Louisville. It's quite an attractive boat built somewhat like a tug boat. Must be in the 30'-35' range. The love of steam power remains strong in the Claytor family.

I'm enclosing a couple of photos from my coal cutting days on 4501.
-Jim Herron

Is this the same Southern engine that ran steam excursions from New Orleans to Burmingham in the late '70's? If so, I took a two day trip with Cap'n Roddy with a layover in Hattiesburg, MS. We were eating a lazy breakfast and looked up to see the train leaving the station 20 minutes early. We snached a cab, but it took an hour, or longer, to catch it. Ever try to catch a speeding train going 60 mph? We finally got back aboard, and had a memorable time. Our car was # 1041-- my lucky number.

Jim: Miss Carol and I were married in 1964 and built this place in 1966. In the fall of that year, we were working on what was laughingly called our yard (eight acres of it) when I heard a very faint wail in the distance...I shouted to Carol to get in the car. It is .4 mile to Mt Zion Rd, .8 to I-75 and likely near that again to the Southern RR trackage. We made it in time to see 4501 come bustin' thru the Mt Zion grade crossing (overpass, now) with a plum of white steam from her generator, billows of BLACK smoke laying close to her back and her whistle tearing the air wide open. I'd say it was worth the trip! I shall look for Preston Claytor's POCAHONTAS steam launch while on the BOL this afternoon (BOL's 95 BD). And, I'm with Aaron...with all due respect to DQ, if there is a better whistle than BOL's on the river anywhere, I have not heard it. I cannot believe that there was once a movement afoot to change it! Cap'n Walnut

Sam-
It most likely was 4501 on the NOLA to Birmingham trip but could also have been 722 or 630. All three went to New Orleans at various times. Weight restrictions kept the biggest engines away from there.
-Jim

Jim: Thanks for the heads up on POCOHONTAS. On the 2PM celebration of the BELLE's 95 BD, we saw her...actually shadowing us. Herewith (I hope) is her picture. On the BELLE, Steve and Tom were in the engine room and Pete went Master. Barb, Joan, Bill, Gayle, Miss Carol and I were on deck (Texas) mostly. Saw Steve and Barb off the P A DENNY long enough to get a quick tour of the PAD.