Steam Trains vs. Steamboats

Good food for thought Aaron. And thanks for your fine letter in The Waterways Journal concerning the Str. JULIA BELLE SWAIN. Let's hope it helps to bring about some positive action!

Thanks Keith,

At this point I'm just about willing to consider anything to help save the boats we have left. Hopefully that letter might reach an audience who did not know of the JBS and her situation.

Hope to see you in Aug.

Aaron

If you want to keep a big secret, just do something on the river. For most people in this country, the vast Mississippi River System doesn't exist. It's nothing more than a line on a map or something you might occasionally have to cross. And God forbid you have to cross it on a FERRY!

In the meantime, railroads are everywhere.

And another thing that seems to be in an unusual abundance is sailing ships. Go figure.

Those steam trains are owned and operated by railroad fan clubs. The members buy and refurbish the locomotives. They make arrangements for traffic rights or they buy branch lines outright. They then operate and maintain them by selling trips to others. They run them as businesses.

For years members of dot.org have been giving free advice to the DQCo and others. Why not try it yourselves?

You have spent thousands riding the Queen boats. Why not invest a few of those thousands to leasing the Julia Belle Swain (along with its officers), then operating her as you wish. You wash the windows and paint the stairs. You clean her and throw the lines. Promote her as the railfans do, maybe even in the various railfan journals. Tramp her along the rivers. The problems are no larger or more costly than those faced and met by the steam train enthusiasts.

Form an association. Incorporate. Find out how many DQ enthusiasts can serve or invest. Those railfans wash the windows, fire the boilers, sweep the cars, sell tickets and promote, promote, promote. They learn the techniques of operating steam locomotives and get the necessary licenses. Why can't you do the same for steamboats? Set out to do it, then do it.

Win or lose you can make your dreams real. Belly-aching will never accomplish it. Others will not do it for you.

Cap,

AMEN...couldn't have been put better! Those of us who can't afford to own her can donate our time. There are many community oriented things...Train operations, Community Theatres, Piublic Parks systems...there has to be room in there for a bunch of steamboat dreamers to make a dream come true! That JUlIA BELLE SWAIN is the perfect boat to do it with, too! Yeah, she needs some big money work on her at the moment...but, once that is done she is really economical and could do everything Cap has mentioned...I am there!

Travis

Alan is right, but so is Lexie. The rivers of this country are invisible; knowledge of navigation on them is non-existent. There are execptions to this - folks who live in close proximity to the Ohio above Louisville and the Upper Miss above, say, Hannibal, are somewhat aware of the river and its commercial traffic. Almost no one else is.

I can't tell you the number of times someone has asked Sharon in the city of Memphis, TN, "Where is Bob now?" "On the way to [say] Nashville." "NASHVILLE?!? TENNESSEE?!? The Mississippi River doesn't go by Nashville!" These are educated people saying this. I used to always recommend a trip from St. Louis to St. Paul for those wanting to take a steamboat trip. Invariably they'd ask, "Oh, there's a river at St. Paul?"

In addition to money and time, a massive advertising campaign would need to be mounted. We old-timers talk about Betty Blake and what she did; you need somebody like that, and let's face it, she was gifted. I'm not saying this could not be done, but it would be WORK. As Alan said, it has to be run as a business.

Cap,

I totally agree with everything you've said and appreciate your response. My heart is in the right place but my wallet can't keep up. Like Travis said if the boat was anywhere near our stretch of river I'd be at the stage volunteering my services. I've been fortunate to have opportunities to volunteer first for the last three months the BONNIE BELLE ran out of Cincinnati (A venture that failed due to market saturation and lack of advertising) and most recently on the BARBARA H (trying to keep her going as a dockside attraction vessel). I've had a lot of people my age ask me why I do it, as if volunteering was a dirty word. My simple response is I've done it for the experience of doing it. I truly hope someone out there will give the Julia Belle a second chance at life and if it means volunteer labor to operate and maintain her that there are enough folks wherever she docks to get the job done. My letter to the journal was simply my effort to draw attention to her situation since the owner hasn't advertised her for sale.

Wonder if Alan Bernstein would consider buying her just so he'd have a real steamboat to "race" against the Belle. Another pipe dream.

Thanks to all for your responses, all make very valid points.

Aaron

Here's a link to Steam trains in the USA.

Surviving Steam Locomotives in the USA

I'm not an expert on either Steam Trains or Steamboats, but I would suspect that most steam locomotives in the US are in the Rockies & West. I know of several railroads that are privately owned by enthusiasts . Most are diesel however.

Maintenance, operating costs and Coast Guard regulations perhaps make large steamboat ownership less attractive. When you throw the economy at the mix it's difficult to fill a large boat with passengers who can afford the necessary ticket price, thus their demise.

On the other hand their seems to be a large ownership of steam launches in the 20 ft range. Check Earl Morse's site. I've been in touch with Earl.

steamboats

Another site is that of Ken Brockway, a personal friend who has been working with me on the Fulton engine project.

My Sidewheeler - Steamboats,Model Engines and More!

ENJOY!

As Alan most eloquently stated: VOLUNTEERS. Another item to throw the proverbial monkey wrench [either right handed or left handed] to Rail Excursions be it Steam or Diesel: INSURANCE. If the right of way isn't privately owned the Class 1 Railroads are difficult if not impossible to deal with as I understand.

Union Pacific runs a few Steam Excursions yes, however they own the Railroad and Locomotive(s).

On the JBS front a note in the latest issue of the Waterways Journal from the CO Owner took great exception of the thought that the boat was for sale! It's worth a read in the WJ, 'nuff said.

Punch my ticket for a cruise on the M/V Jim's Dream!

I'm not expert on railroad museums but one of my best friends in heavily involved in the Kentucky Railroad Museum which operates a beautiful Pacific locomotive, No 152 which they got running about 20 yrs ago. Without state aid and a lot of corporate help, it never would have happened. Now the corporate help has dissappeared and the state aid has nearly dried up, the museum is in desparate straights. It can not stand on it's own even with volunteer help. The cost of keeping 152 running eats up ever cent they have. The steam excursions they run do not begin to pay for themselves. With the huge cost of the steam engine taking every cent, they have no money to maintain the rest of their rolling stock. And with only volunteer help they have plenty of people who want to blow the whistle and ring the bell but no one who wants to wash the windows and clean the toilets. As my friend says, they need to forget about 152 and strictly run their diesel, maybe that way they can stay alive.

Too bad about the KRM of which I have been a long distance member on and off for years. Of late, off. But that is the only excursion railroad I know of that is run by volunteers. Of the several here in Colorado, they are privately run businesses. The scale tips in favor of steam, but the fairly new Royal Gorge Route is diesel and is going gangbusters. The Georgetown Loop RR has recently changed owners and is spending gobs of money to keep it steam. Then you have the old timers like Durango Silverton and Cumbres Toltec, both steam. And they are having problems with government regulation, too, but they soldier on. There must be some money in there somewhere. I am also pretty sure that most of the excursion trains I know of in Texas are also businesses. Volunteerism is a good thing but, as you pointed out, it has its fatal flaws. If you are running as many as 3 completely full passenger steam trains a day, you need everyone showing up to do a job. And those jobs are demanding and important, no fluffing around allowed. Same thing for boats. Otherwise, these boats are just going to stay tied up forever.

There was an active steam railroad engine Frisco 1522 but new federal regulations regarding boilers, plus insurance issues made it too expensive to operate. The Essex CT steam train operates as a business on track that they own. They take you to a boat ride and combine the two. The Strasburg Railroad hauls freight to pay the bills.

The Union Pacific Railroad is a major freight railroad that has a steam engine that hauls passengers, but I know of no US railroad that provides overnight sleeping car trains pulled by steam that are available to the general public. Most operations are like the Belle of Louisville and the NATCHEZ.

There are companies that could put something together as a charter, if you have the money for the cars, the locomotive, the staff, etc. It isn't cheap, but I'm sure it could be done. If the train is using the same rail as freight traffic, the cars will have to match modern requirements, which could mean using Amtrak cars behind a steam engine.

"plenty of people who want to blow the whistle and ring the bell ...."

That's what you'd get with steamboat volunteers, too, but it would be "plenty of people who'd want to play the calliope and be the riverlorian".

Trust me, I've seen too many of them.

I did not think you were considered a REAL STEAMBOATER unless you could play the calliope. I know it was the stumbling block in mine and others service on the Steamboats.

Gee...and I thought you liked me, Shipyard!

Come on ....

Come on Travis, you know what I meant. There's nothing directed at "professional calliope players and riverlorians", but like Jim's comment about the volunteer train buffs, I know by many year's experience that there would be very few volunteers to clean the toilets, change the beds, wash the dishes, pots, and pans; sweep the decks, and do the hundred other thankless jobs that keep passenger steamboats running... not for very long, anyway. But there might be another way to get volunteers ---- pay them, but the wages would be more like they were in the "good old days": Deck and Cabin hands receive 21 - 35 bucks a week, plus room and board, and so on. Everyone on the crew might have several jobs--"doublin' brass" as they would say. Even the calliope player might be working in the Purser's Office (or the kitchen) between tunes. That's the way it used to be. Remember?

"Sis is in the kitchen, Junior throws the rope. Daddy drives the boat, and Mother plays the cally-ope..."

Well, now we are in an area that I have been--both as a volunteer and as a paid person (Next time you see Western Pacific 805A or 2001, thats'a my paintin'). Steam is expensive to run, and if Frisco 152 was done some 20 years ago, then the Federal Railroad Administration--trains' version of the Coast Guard--regulations will require boiler inspection including tube/flue replacement (or safe-ending after complete examination). Sorry gettin' into techno talk now. This is just one of the expenses of operating steam locos. Most of the groups running steam locos rely on massive volunteer help to do the dirty work--much dirtier than cleaning toilets, etc. There seems to be more folks interested in this than there is in the maritime community, although the Jeremiah O'Brian Liberty Ship seems to succeed in having such a group. They actually brought the ship up to standards to steam her back to Normandy a few years ago. Not unlike getting the DQ up to a full-length river excursion--except the folks on board didn't expect any better food than Navy rations, nor much better sleeping conditions!
It is possible to get volunteers to do the "menial" tasks, but it takes great organizing, and good rewarding. Some of us are just happy with having satisfied passengers, but others need stronger back-pats. I find my great satisfaction is having folks smiling when they leave, obviously having enjoyed themselves--and sometimes that ain't easy with equipment breakdowns, etc. Renting AMTRAK equipment has its ups and downs--like plugged toilets that weren't emptied before you got the cars.
Changes in society have made finding volunteers more difficult too. Training a crew to run a steamboat takes a bit more than running a steam engine--there's more folks in the "engineering" part than in a steam engine, plus the added emergency training caused by being on water. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would require great organization. I think I could take a trip or two as an oiler--but the shifts would probably have to be done differently, or run only during the day (4 hours on, 4 hours off would get to me!). There's another difference; on the boat you need crew 24 hours/day, but train excursions usually are less than 8 hours, with lodging (if any) supplied by commercial motel/hotels.
Of the examples others have mentioned: the Cumbres and Toltec narrow-gauge railroad relies on paid staff, AND funding from both Colorado and New Mexico (it runs in both states). The Union Pacific used to run excursions with its Steam Program, with volunteer groups staffing the passenger services (and providing a fund raising opportunity for them). They no longer do this, both because of insurance issues and scheduling complications. Their program is, after all, a publicity/public relations tool for them.
No easy answers here, sorry!
David D.
PS--if this is disjointed, I'll blame it on the late hour and the pain meds!

Since the Julia Belle Swain is not for sale, it should not be too hard to charter it as a subsidy to its regular business. Even in today's market just a few thousand dollars could make the difference between loss and profit for its owner. The people, who could afford to spend a couple of thousand dollars per year to ride the Queen boats obviously could afford to do something of this sort.

There is a vast difference between the operations of the Belle of Louisville and the Natchez. The Belle is subsidized by Louisville and Jefferson County much the same as the park system is financed. The Natchez is a family-owned private business.
The Belle of Louisville's season is limited to about seven months. Natchez runs the year 'round. New Orleans draws far more tourists than Louisville despite the brutal New Orleans climate.

Sam is right. Having come up through the ranks he knows all about the heavy, exhausting and disgusting jobs involved in operating a passenger boat, jobs that only a very few volunteers would do. It would pay volunteers to put in a week or two on a garbage truck or with a honey-dipper (or both!) before volunteering. This why a consortium of river fans should charter the Julia Belle Swain and devote themselves to publicity, salesmanship and entertainment.

Did anyone else see the glaring holes in the "correction" to my letter in the WWJ. I don't have it with me here at work so I won't quote from it, but not for sale and would consider offers from private parties kind of sounds like contradictions. And I don't believe for a minute that the boat was saved from the scrap heap when the current owner(s) bought her. Just my 2 cents

Ah, this brings up a major difference between steam trains and riverboats. The steam locomotive can sit in a park for decades and still be relivable (if it hasn't been terribly vandalized--something that is happening more often nowadays). However, a steamboat languishing in a side water seldom can survive due to sinking! Also it is less "guarded" than something on display in a park setting. There's even one locomotive that was dug out of a riverbank and restored!!
S'
David D.

I think them there "riverlorians" has got the cushiest job of all. I mean, mouthin' off about the river all day, and steamboats and such, to a captive audience...you can't beat it. And you could just lie your brains out, and they'd go along with it just grinnin'...and, by gosh, they pay you to do it as well? Lordy, Lordy! Leave the cally-ope playing to the musicians. I'll take that riverlorian job any day. I'd clean toilets with a toothbrush to be a riverlorian.

JBS Not For Sale?

Captain Bates comments just above, is this the case? I thought the JBS was on the block for the past two years. Did I miss something, somewhere?