str. ADMIRAL photos

Columned Building

I will check it out in some history of St. Louis. I DO know the building right
behind it was the Bell Telephone building.

On the pictures: What bridge was that the boat is under? It is nothing
in the St. Louis area. New Orleans? I know it went to New Orleans
for awhile a winter or two to fill in for the President while it was being
equipped with diesel (caterpillar engines, I believe). Is it NOLA?

ADMIRAL

In my posting with the pictures, I identified the bridge as the new Jefferson Barracks Bridge, which is now I-255 at the bottom of the St. Louis harbor. I also pointed out that the Memphis picture must have been taken when she subbed for the PRESIDENT in New Orleans the winter of 1977-78 as the PREZ was being dieselized.

Modern River Boats and the Admiral

Maybe I should start another thread for this idea but I have never been able to figure out how to do that.

Looking at the interesting old photos of the Admiral that Judy has posted made me think. Over the years no one has really come up with a modern design that is unique for Mississippi River/inland rivers cruising. The Admiral came as close as anyone with the Art Deco style. They were obviously doing their best to make a steamboat NOT look like a steamboat. Why did no one ever try to compete against the Greene Line for the overnight vacation crowd? Was the market not there without the nostalgia of a Mark Twain/paddlewheel vessel? Now I realize that everyone on this board are fans of the DQ/MQ/AQ boats and that style of cruising. But even among us we all have our favorite boat.

It just seems interesting that over the years that some entrepreneur did not try to compete against the old fashion style of cruising the river with a modern day styled boat. I realize that none of us would probably want to ride on it if we were given a choice. But does that mean there are not enough people out there who like riding cruise ships on the ocean that would like to try a river cruise on a uniquely designed modern type of vessel. If this were 1940 then that boat would probably look a lot like the Admiral. Didn’t Tom Greene even try to make the DQ look more modern the first year by removing the tall part of the smoke stack to give it a sleek modern look? What would a modern day river cruise boat look like?
What are your thoughts?

Ted, you bring up some good points. Yes, Tom Greene did try to make the DQ look like a little ship at first. Of course, that boat has never been a Misissippi River style boat, and thankfully no one evr tried to make her into one. The DQ is a very beautiful boat as she is.

The Eagle Packet Co. was in the tourist business in competition with the Greenes. Of course, they sold the CAPE GIRARDEAU (which became the GORDON C. GREENE) to the Greenes and tried for a while to continue with the GOLDEN EAGLE, which sank. After that, no more competition from them.

Jack Trotter had the ARKANSAS EXPLORER ( a little ship) for a while and ran cruises on the Arkansas and Mississippi Rivers. He sold the boat to Bill Bowell of St. Paul who tried for a while. Neither could make a go of it, even using crew in multiple capacities as has been suggested on this board. The NEW ORLEANS tried for while in the early '80's. No luck. Of course, River Barge did okay for a while, but they too went out.

To sum up, several have tried what you suggest with varying degrees of success. None have been able to do it. It kind of goes back to Jim Reising's question of "why in other countries but not here".

Judy, I'm going to have to disagree on picture #2. That is the upper Memphis Bridge (I-40) in about 1971 or 72. I think the 3rd picture of the ADMIRAL at Memphis was taken prior to '77. I had been bitten by the steamboat bug, and drove down to the river one evening, and lo and behold, there was the ADMIRAL nosed in to the foot of Mud Island as pictured here. I want to say this was 1974. What other times didd she go to NOLA to sub for the PREZ?

New vs. old styles

I guess you could say the MQ was an attempt to design a modern type vessel - certainly the private verandas and the pool were new to the river. And the separate dining rooms/show rooms... Whether it was intended to be non-riverish or not, or if that was just the result of having an ocean liner guy designing it... but even with the new stuff, they felt they needed steam and a paddlewheel.
Here's a comparison that doesn't involve overnight boats: The N.O. Steamboat Company had a sleek yacht-type vessel, the BAYOU JEAN LAFITTE/JOHN JAMES AUDUBON, which was available for charters at a rate less than the NATCHEZ. And even though its capacity was a lot less than that of the NATCHEZ, 600 vs. 1600, she had more seating inside in airconditioning than the NATCHEZ, 400 vs. 258. You'd think a person planning a wedding reception or some such event would automatically gravitate to the BJL/JJA. Not necessarily so. And when the NATCHEZ had a charter and the regular dinner cruise was on the BJL, with the same food and band, many people opted to wait a night to ride. And of course we had the paddlewheeler COTTON BLOSSOM too for charters, and she held a goodly number inside, more than you'd think. She was often chosen over the newer sleeker vessel too. One more vessel, which was only operated about 6 months and is often forgotten, was the catamaran AUDUBON EXPRESS, which made the zoo/aquarium trip in about half the time that the CB or JJA did. She literally flew atop the river... and thence up to Seattle I believe. And it was back to the slower boat between the zoo and aquarium.

ADMIRAL in NOLA

I've got an email in to Jim Blum for help on this - I don't think the ADMIRAL subbed for the PRESIDENT in NOLA other than in 1977-78, but she certainly could have gone to NOLA for drydocking and then did some trips out of Memphis enroute. Was she converted in St. Louis or in NOLA? That could have been the occasion for the NOLA run, which would have been 73-74.

Memphis bridge

Could that bridge pix have been as late as 1973-74? When was that I-40 opened up? I'll go upstairs to my Streckfus magazines and see if I can find some info on the ADMIRAL's forays to NOLA. I wouldn't think she would have gone too often, considering the cost and the parsimony of the Streckfus Steamers.

ADMIRAL in NOLA

I checked the Streckfus magazines and they didn't indicate any out of town trips for the ADMIRAL. She was converted at the St. Louis dock. There are pix of the Cats being lowered over to her. She had 3 975hp Cats. The PREZ had 2 1000 Detroit diesels... So when and why the ADMIRAL was in Memphis we await an answer...

Wasn't there some bickering between the two branches of the Streckfus clan that resulted in a "trading" of the two big boats in the wintertime for a while? I seem to remember something about that. Then, someone got P.O.'d and told the USCG about ADMIRAL hull problems that led to her being sold? I was thinking that all played together somehow, in the mid-to-late '70's?

As far as the I-40 bridge in Memphis, it opened for traffic in 73 or 74. We still call it the "new" bridge. ;-D

Someone (Alan Bates?) said you could have a big boat and a small boat in the same trade, advertise the small boat saying "Free boat rides" and the big boat with "This boat goes to Hell - fare $5" (or something to that effect) and folks would ride the big boat every time.

Seems like I remember a story about CG inspectors down in the ADMIRAL's hull, and one inspector put his elbow thru the rusty hull accidently, while trying to manuever in cramped quarters(?).. Apparently this was above the waterline! After that incident the CG didn't want to mess with inspecting it, or other permanently moored vessels.

Am I remembering this correctly? Is it a true story?

Streckfi tidbits

First of all, Bob, that bridge pix could have been 1971-72 as I got an email from Jim and Annie stating that the ADMIRAL went to NOLA for the 5 year drydock inspection in 1971. I still wonder about them running an excursion out of Memphis though, since that would have needed more crew than they'd have just deadheading to NOLA.
As to the hull and Streckfus feuds: one brotherly feud preceding the ADMIRAL happened when Capt. Roy didn't want to run the aging wooden-hulled CAPITOL in the NOLA harbor in the winter. Capt. Joe was the company president and fired his brother over that, but shortly after reinstated him. The boats didn't exchange locations, but the captains did. I believe it was Roy and Verne who alternated between NOLA and St. Louis while Joe and John stayed in St. Louis. Joe was company president after his father's death, and upon Joe's death Roy became president.
Now to the ADMIRAL's hull problem.
The ADMIRAL lost her COI, remained dockside, got towed to Paducah and stored there awhile, was brought back to St. Louis where Six Flags turned her into an unsuccessful amusement venue, and then converted into a casino. I believe the hull inspection was after the 1978 season.
Steve, I don't know about your story, but if that happened, it would have been long after the initial condemning inspection, probably when she was a casino. I've never been able to figure out why a vessel with a bad hull is allowed to continue dockside - seems to me she could sink just as easily dockside as out in the river?

Thanks for clearing that up about the feud.

As for them running excursions out of Memphis, no, that did not happen. They were simply stopped there waiting for fuel, maybe. This was before I had worked for Memphis Queen Lines, and I did not really know any of those folks, but that evening when I saw the ADMIRAL there, as pictured, I went to MQL dock and asked John Lozier if he had any boat that could take me out there to see the ADMIRAL. I was prepared to ask to go aboard, just to look around, while they were stopped. John didn't think much of the idea and turned me down. They must have been enroute back to St. Louis after the drydocking, but I know they did not run any excursions, at least at Memphis.

Another Catagory

I've never been able to figure out why a vessel with a bad hull is allowed to continue dockside JP

Me neither. Every casino boat I've commanded (5) have all enjoyed rigid hull examinations spread out over a five year program where a certain amount of the hull is inspected annually. Though these gamlin' boats have been exempt from the usual 5-year dry-docking (after applying for; then given the privilege), the USCG has been present for ultra-sounding of the plates from both the inside and under the water with a dive team inspecting and making soundings while video-taping their work for confirmation.

Now that the USCG is out of the inspection picture for 'dockside' and 'PMV's', the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) is inspecting Indiana boats, and they are just as thorough as the Coasties. In addition, very month I am required to personally make an exterior inspection of the hull from the waterline to the deck and log the results.

I do not want anyone to get the impression that casino boats can sit around dockside with unsafe hulls while loaded down with people whose lives may be at risk. They cannot.

As for the ADMIRAL --it's like Chief Cal used to say, "That's another category."

Bob,

The quote was one of those prize, oft quoted statements of Capt. Frederick Way Jr. It seems to me it was on one of the Whistle Blow records. Perhaps the one where he and J. Mack Gamble narrated together? I may not remember where but, I do remember who!

Travis

Admiral Conversion to Diesel

8/9/2010: Well folks, I found that I came up short on the information about Avondale Shipyards and the conversion. I was slightly embarrassed but that emotion was eclipsed by contentment of the knowledge that there ARE other people than me who care about the Admiral, and steamboats in general. Up until a couple of days ago, I felt as if NO one else cared......

>>>I can absolutely attest that the Admiral was converted to Diesel at Avondale Shipyards, NOLA. Originally she had two 1000 hp steam engines (oil fueled)
which propelled two 32' sidewheels. Not enough on the busy St. Louis navigation channel in the 70s....not enough maneurverability (sic). The diesels were more responsive, and did not require engine telegraphs. She was ramped up to 2700 hp, with a third engine in the stern. One winter after that the Admiral was gone. I was TOLD it ran for the President in NOLA during its conversion, but that is not substantiated.<<<

ADMIRAL conversion

The ADMIRAL was converted from steam to diesel during the winter of 1973-74. The PRESIDENT was converted from steam to diesel in the winter of 1977-78, which is when the ADMIRAL went to NOLA to cover for her. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the ADMIRAL also went to NOLA in 1971-72 for her hull inspection. So that would have put her due for another hull inspection in 1976-77, which would have also been down at Avondale in NOLA.

As to the guarantee in someone's posting that the conversion was done at Avondale in the NOLA harbor:

Er, that is the GATEWAY ARCH in St. Louis in the background and the photo caption reads: "With the Arch in the background the big Cat engine is gently maneuvered in to position for its entry." On the preceding page is a picture of the stern engine being swung out, with the ADMIRAL affixed to the Streckfus Steamers wharfboat. pp. 6-7 Streckfus Steamers Magazine 1976

later ADMIRAL photos

Here are 3 photos taken later in the ADMIRAL's career. The first one was taken in June 1983 in Paducah Ky., where she was being stored.
The last two show the Six Flags conversion project and the horrid landing barge which was constructed for the venture. The GOLDENROD showboat is immediately upriver of the ADMIRAL in this picture.

Annie Blum here. It is impossible for even an educated board such as this one, to remember everything. The newspapers of the day would fill in nicely. One thing I do remember from the newspapers and I could re check it, is that the Admiral subbed for the President twice. Once was in 1974 when the Pres was brought to St. Louis to be air conditioned and the other was when the pres came back to be dieselized.

Annie Blum here. It was believed in St. Louis that the Admiral went to New Orleans during the winters, for the whole winter. In truth, the first full winter the Admiral spent in the South was in 1974.

Let's be careful about rumors. They are what they are.

Avondale

Well, looks as if I have been CALLED OUT on the Avondale Shipyard conversion. That was my memory, but I guess I am wrong. I can figure
out, though, how the boat as converted w/o being in dry dock, as wasn't
taking out the sidewheels necessary? Didn't the propulsion go to screws
instead of sidewheels? Yah, I remember it going to Avondale for hull
inspection........was it ever inspected by the USCG in STL? I remember after it failed (was it 1978?) it was stationary for night club use only. A lot of
pieces are missing, but you know what: It really does not matter anymore.
Looks like the boat may be sold for scrap and end up like the President, in
some ungodly landlocked burg. What a shame WHAT a shame! Now the Mississippi River Bridge in MEM was opened in Aug of 2003, so that trip with the boat under the bridge would have had to be over the winter of 1972-1973
AND....Avondale Shipyards is going out of business. Are ANY vestiges of riverboat travel going to be left?

The way they converted the boat to diesel prop without going to drydock is that the diesels are/were Murray-Tregurtha outdrive units, basically like great big outboard motors. I am willing to be corrected, but THINK they are in the wheelhouses of the ADMIRAL.

While not easy, the paddlewheels could be dis-assembled inside the wheelhouses, and I think that's what was done with both the ADMIRAL and the PRESIDENT.

The boat was frequently inspected in St. Louis by the USCG -- annual and quarterly inspections. Drydocking for hull inspection is only required every 5 years. Since there were no drydocks at St. Louis large enough to accomodate the ADMIRAL, she went to NOLA for that.

The only reason any of it matters any more is because we care about history. If we don't understand history we don't know how we got to where we are in the first place. We also make the same mistakes others have made if we don't know what has happened in the past, and why. So, I would say it actually matters quite a lot.

Right, right, right and right, Bob!

Bob Reynolds;22740 wrote: The way they converted the boat to diesel prop without going to drydock is that the diesels are/were Murray-Tregurtha outdrive units, basically like great big outboard motors. I am willing to be corrected, but THINK they are in the wheelhouses of the ADMIRAL.

While not easy, the paddlewheels could be dis-assembled inside the wheelhouses, and I think that's what was done with both the ADMIRAL and the PRESIDENT.

The boat was frequently inspected in St. Louis by the USCG -- annual and quarterly inspections. Drydocking for hull inspection is only required every 5 years. Since there were no drydocks at St. Louis large enough to accomodate the ADMIRAL, she went to NOLA for that.

The only reason any of it matters any more is because we care about history. If we don't understand history we don't know how we got to where we are in the first place. We also make the same mistakes others have made if we don't know what has happened in the past, and why. So, I would say it actually matters quite a lot.

Here's a sketch of one of the units from the 1974 Streckfus Steamers Magazine. One unit went in each wheelhouse and one on the stern. In that magazine it stated that Captains William S. Streckfus and J Curran Streckfus Jr. were handling the design and supervising the work of stripping the wheelhouses and preparing them for the propulsion engines. And it does matter to get these things squared away for our records - I've been going back and forth via email with the Blums today regarding the various dates of the NOLA visits, and I had forgotten about the time the PREZ came up to St. Louis to be airconditioned. I've got one more picture to post here, before I go out and finally finish cutting the grass, which was started many postings ago.... This picture was taken in New Orleans as she went under the Greater New Orleans Bridge upbound. Note the great clearance which we don't have on the upper rivers. There is a 170 foot clearance to accommodate the ocean-going vessels. I don't know which year this was taken.