Topic starter
01/02/2007 5:17 pm
Steamboating colleagues:
'Today in Steamboat History' "Formation of RIVER LINES, Feb. 1, 1932" is interesting. Here in the 'dusty boxes' is the original incorporation papers relating the details, reasons and final legal/financial decisions. Too long to relate in one posting. The agreement does touch on the 'freight agreement' etc. at discussed on the web recently.
* * * * * * * *
'Formed Feb. 1, 1932, merger of the 'California Transportation Company, 'Scramento Navigation Co.' and 'Fay Transportation Co.' the three being authorized by the then Railroad Commission of the Sate of California in Decision No.24420 to conduct a unified operation under the name and style of 'The River Lines.' The merger was brought by a complaint case No. 3034 filed in the fall of 1931 by the 'California Transportation Co.' [*C.T. Co.] against the above claiming their operations were being conducted illegally and tht their rates were discriminatory and unethecal and would result in a disastrous rate war unless cancelled.
The 'Fay Co' held only two rates between Sacramento and Bay points at 15 cents per cwt, regrdless to classification and 10 cents per cwt on freight carloads regardless of classification. This competition was drawing considerable tonnage from the two older companies. In a hearing before the Railroad Commission, Commissioner Stevenot suggested to the litigants they consider merging their respective companies under a unified operation rather than fighting each other for the existing tonnage which was not of sufficient volume to support all three companies under separate operation and management. [*Depths of the Great Depression.] Thus all three merged under 'The River Lines.'
Board of Control was appointed of the following:
Capt. C.A. Anderson, Chairman of the Board
W.P. Dwyer; N.A. Fay; N. Fay; Platt Kent; Wm. Hetson; John C. Stone; Major Tilden; Robert Devlin. A Division of Revenue to be: C.T.Co = 53%; Sacramento Navigatioin = 27%; Fay Trans. = 20% with a guarantee of $50,000 to Fay. [*Documents here have N.A. Fay's marginal notes.]
Large quantities of agricultural products were handled from the San Joaquin Delta Islands to San Francisco and Stockton. Other vessels and barges handled carload lots [*CLC] between Sacramento, Bay points and Stockton. Barges handled large lots of grain and rice from the upper river to Port Costa, San Francisco Bay wharves and docks. [*A kind of 'hukster' trade.] Truck/road operations became more active in the handling of merchandise between points served by the 'River Lines' giving faster service. It was apparent to management it would be necessary to acquire trucking rights to supplement the slower vessel service on many types of merchandise." [*'Truck farming' as feared by Jim Burns had proven a bitter pill.]
* * * * * * * *
NEXT: 'River Lines' moves into petroleum shipment with barges built at Stockton by the DRAVO Corporation.
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick
01/02/2007 11:32 pm
Thsi is very interesting, Dale! Thanks for sharing the contents of those "dusty boxes". I for one had wondered about shipping "sacks of rice" (as mentioned in SAGA OF THE DELTA QUEEN) vs loading such bulk commodities on barges. I can see where the packet boat nature of the boats would lend itself well to the small vegeable growers before trucking, yet fully understand about the downfall of the small shipments after trucks/highways. Does anyone know if they still utilize the Sacramento for barges and towboats for bulk shipments of grain or petroleum? Anxiously awaiting the next installment to see how the petro trade on barges went!
01/02/2007 11:43 pm
And another question along these lines, closer to home!
Capt's Tom and Mary Greene bought and outfitted the GORDON C. GREENE for tourist service during the Depression. It has been posited that this was partly due to restrictions on international travel for the wealthy. However, what caused Capt. Tom and his mother to "see the writing on the wall" for tourist service vs packet service? Did they have any special advice from financial wizrds, or was this a gut feeling? I know Chris Greene thought they were very wrong, and Greene Line continued to try to make it hauling frieght with the CHRIS and TOM in the short Cincinnati to Louisvuille trade, which ultimately played out. Wonder how these decisions were arrived at?
Topic starter
02/02/2007 12:10 am
Hi, Bob:
Good questions and I never pretend to know the answers. Regarding the Sacramento River today. Just fly in a jet overhead and look down at the present day 'channel project' on the river and a great deal of it doesn't even follow the old river channel. I was astounded to see deep water ships sailing up the Sacramento River. The 'Delta's of the Sacramento is strange terminology. Geologically the Sacramento River doesn't have a 'delta' as we think. It's termed an 'interveted delta,' meaning it spreads out at the confluence of the Sacramento and San Joaquin--then an estuary into upper San Francisco Bay. Strange country out there even today and hard to believe steamboats were once in operation on those waters.
Use of petroleum for steamboats out there is understandable considering coal was scarce and the land was rich in oil. The 'C.T.Co.' realized this long ago and their boats ran on oil.
The GREENE LINE were, in many ways, on the cutting edge of 'steamboat tourism' here. Remember my series on this web with the interview of Capt. Mary B. Greene in the cabin of the GORDON C. GREENE, 1948? The GREENE LINE had long pioneered 'tourism' with the sidewheel GREENLAND from Pittsburgh to the St. Louis World's Fair. The famed EAGLE PACKET CO. in St. Louis also were in the same game. The Greenes did 'balance' freight al la Capt. Chris Greene with passengers/tourism with Capt. Tom Greene. The GL had freight barges to supplement shipments from here by water. The Greenes were far more progressive projecting into the future than we often realize. Capt. Tom wanted to divorce from the old 'steamboat era' which he personally called "Stemaboatiana" to the new era of the 'SS DELTA QUEEN'--no reference in the first years to 'steamboat' other than 'steamer' in promotions and company literature. Just look at the early photos of the sleek, raked stack with the letter 'G' and you can see where the Greenes wanted the company to lead. Well, what do I know?
Off tomorrow later PM on the rolling ocean and back here on Feb. 12th.
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick
02/02/2007 2:35 am
Okay, Dale, that brings up another question along those lines. Were the freight barges the Greenes owned for small shipments - package freight, LCL shipments, or were they trying to break into the bulk trade? Did they tow these barges with their own boats, or set them out for pick up by towboats in the tramp, or barge line trade? Do you know if they ever considered going into the barge line or contract carrier business?
I knew about Capt. Tom wanting to disassociate the company from the old-time steamboat mentality, with the DQ looking like a little ship. I'm sorry I did not remember the thread on here concerning your interview with Capt. Mary in 1948.
I know also the Eagle Packet Co. sold the Greenes the GORDON, but continued to operate the GOLDEN EAGLE in the tourist trade. Her wood hull did her in. This brings up yet ANOTHER question: In a recent S & D REFLECTOR, there are photos and a story about the sinking of the GOLDEN EAGLE. Capt. Buck Leyhe of Eagle Packet Co. is shown conferring "with the owner of the boat, Herman Pott". Herman Pott of course was a big-wig with Federal Barge Lines and St. Louis Ship. Was there any corporate connection there with Eagle Packet?
Topic starter
02/02/2007 12:36 pm
Bob & steamboating colleagues:
I'm a tad 'fuzzy' on the barge/bulk cargo the GREENE LINE here were involved in. The S&D REFLECTOR featured a fine B/W photo in an issue showing the GL wharfboat here with those big containers lashed along side. Seems one of the bulk carriers was christened STOGIE WHITE for Capt. Tom Greene's friend and boon companion. I'd bet Capts. Alan Bates and Bill Judd, among others, could enlighten us on that facet of the operation. Again, like on the Sacramento River with the 'C.T.Co.,' the Great Depression hit the shipping industry deadly blows. The big maritime strikes of the mid 1930s were national in scope and a number of the old steamboat/ship lines went under. Labor matter also rose to the forefront in the years following end of W.W. II, 1946-1950. The real factor was the evolution of autos, bulk trucks, expanding highways. Bulk cargo was the staple with the 'C.T.Co.' on the Sacramento admitting that the main crux of their operations were freight and not passenger service. In some instances records from old companies reveal that the bulk freight divisions 'carried' the passenger departments. Even then the coming of fall and winter, other than business travelers, fell of drastically in passenger revenue.
Keith Norrington has much knowledge Re: the old EAGLE PACKET CO. and the Leyhe family. Yes, there's a lot of great steamboat history--and business factors--to be mined.
The Capt. Mary B. Greene interview done in the cabin of the GORDON C. GREENE was serialized on this site and it may be accessed in Steamboats.org in the archives. I found the original manuscript shoved in the archives at the Literary Club here.
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick
Topic starter
02/02/2007 3:43 pm
Steamboating colleagues:
Additional 'dusty diggings' here Re: 'River Lines,' formerly the 'C.T.Co.' produced several stock certificates starting with A-49. To meet financial needs the 'California Transportation Company' entered an incorporation process in the Sate of California on March 31, 1927 for 'Capital Stock' of $5,000,000 offering 50,000 shares at $100 each. Stan Garvey & John Burns told me that over twenty years ago surviving original copies of these certificates were commanding on/around $35 each to collectors. How these stock certificates came to my family is unknown at this time. Father died in 1979 and mother at 90 can't recall. The ornate certificate carries a fine cut of the DELTA KING in port profile facing left. The KING was heralded as the flagship of the company, thus letters, forms, publications always showed DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN, though the same as 'two peas in a pod.' A claim was made some years ago that the KING was a "better boat" than the QUEEN. Not true as they were finished the same with no major differences or compromise in integrity or service. Another document here was prepared years later by the 'Fay Co.' on their history written in first person--possibly by one of the Fay family men.
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"In 1940, the 'River Lines' commenced handling refined petroleum products in bulk tank barges. The first built at Stockton by the DRAVO CORP. [*California division] with the first customer being 'Shell Oil,' then 'Union Oi,' 'Tidewater Oil,' 'Western Highway Oil.' This venture proved very intelligent move on our part, and credit given to Capt. Norvin Fay for his vision. In addition, new diesel powered tug boats replaced the old steam towing vessels. The struggling truck merchandise business and rights were disposed of. The Dwyer family gave up all remaining rights in the 'River Lines' in May, 1946 and after that the 'RL' ceased in pick-up and delivery of merchandise. All the old steam freight vessels were retired and the business centered on barges with new towing equipment. [*Ocean ships were capable now of reaching Sacramento and Stockton.]
Vessels 'merged' into 'River Lines' were:
DELTA KING
DELTA QUEEN
J.D. PETERS
T.C. WALKER
LEADER [*John Burns certified as a fireman on this boat.]
NEWTON
AURORA
REFORM
ISLETON
CAPT. WEBER
PRIDE OF THE RIVER
PORT OF STOCKTON
FOR SUTTER.
[*Ten smaller boats and some eighteen barges were included. Barges on those waters then carried 'names' such as TENNESSEE, NEBRASKA, OHIO etc.]
The DELTA KING was sold to the 'Aluminum Company of Canada serving duty in British Columbia as a bunk house and power unit from 1952-1959. [*Some of you may have that NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC magazine showing in detail the KING with exterior and interior views while in Canada.]
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick [*Back at my desk on Feb. 12th.]
02/02/2007 4:39 pm
Keep in mind that Chris Greene thought so negatively about the GCG possibilities, that it was not bought and owned by Greene Line, of which he was a part, but rather the GCG was bought by Capts. Tom and Mary Greene as individuals. I don't know if Richard Stewart has had time lately for this board, but hopefully he might appear to shed more light on this whole thread.
02/02/2007 4:47 pm
What Nat. Geo. Issue is that? I'd like to look for it!
Thanks.
S'
David Dewey
02/02/2007 4:50 pm
The 1948 interview with Mary B. Greene is blocked out for some reason. Maybe its just me or maybe Franz can fix it. The block out message is in German.
02/02/2007 5:15 pm
Bill, it says that an internal error has occurred and to try back at a later time. But at least Part III does come up for me, not the others.
02/02/2007 5:19 pm
Here's the closing from Dale's part III, which shows the driving spirit of the company:
The depression of 1929 saw practically every line on the Ohio/Mississippi Rivers go out of existence and even the Greenes with but two packets considered the possibility of abandoning business. Capt. Mary Greene, however, having weathered other depressions, refused to give up her life's work. She had faith in the future of her boats on the river and she believed in the old adage, "Once you ride between two stacks...you're doomed to ride upon a river craft until you're tombed." Mary felt sure that something would turn up to help her, and it did.
Topic starter
02/02/2007 6:53 pm
Dear David, Judy, Bob & colleagues:
Good question on the date of the older NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. I'll have to 'dig' and try to find it as I think it's in storage at my mother's house several blocks away. She's been pestering me to get more of the 'dusty boxes' out of there and brought here. It was mentioned back a long time ago on Steamboats.org. If any posters here have the new CD with index of GEOGRAPHICS they may be able to pull it up. Keith Norrington has an incredible memory and, perhaps, he can recall. The color photos showed the KING in British Columbia with interior/exterior shots. I 'think' one even showed some of the workers seated in one of the lounges and there, sure enough, you see the KING's stained glass windows etc. Her boilers were used for steam and power with steam lines running from the boat to other facilities built nearby. I know I'm not hallucinating and recall it vividly. Ted Guillam may also have an archival source on that issue.
I'm preparing to leave for a trip out of the country but will be back on Feb. 12th. *Glad Judy called attention to the great color photos on the KING today. First I'd ever seen by somebody we know on this web. Pete Sisak also has been aboard and waxed with praise. Stan Garvey gave a great S&D luncheon program years ago in Marietta showing the boat before, during and after the restoration. It was well done and haunting to see the boat brought back to life from near death and destruction. Testimony to the fine design, materials and work that went into both QUEENS back in the 1920s. If you don't have Stan Garvey's 'KING & QUEEN of the River,' don't walk--run--or look on Internet book sources etc. Also Capt. Fred Way's classic, 'SAGA of the DELTA QUEEN.' Fred also ran features in the S&D REFLECTOR a number of times over the years he was editor.
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick
Topic starter
02/02/2007 7:06 pm
Hi, Bill:
Thanks for the 'blocked' information. It was posted a long time ago here in about four installments. Perhaps, in time Franz can check on it. I've received already two E=Mails wanting to know about the interview of Capt. Mary B. Greene done here in 1948 by Mr. Espy, now deceased, of my Literary Club here in Cincinnati. Another request also to resurrect the paper here in my files, edit and send to the S&D REFLECTOR. We shall see.
S&D President, Jerry Sutphin, did tell me there are old recordings done with Capt. Mary Greene speaking. I've never heard that one but did hear a record done on, I 'think,' the Str. TOM GREENE. You can hear the engines, voices etc. clearly. *I gotta' get moving here to leave tonight. I'll check Steamboats.org while away.
Cheers,
R. Dale Flick
02/02/2007 8:47 pm
Thanks to Dale's suggestion I did a search on my NGS disks and found 2 pictures. The issue is September 1956. Page 385 and 386 show her anchored in sand and protected by a coffer dam. Page 390 shows 2 men in a room (looks like the Texas deck) with a view of the harbor at Kitimat, BC. Good luck finding that 51 yr old issue.
The pictures are copyrighted by NGS, so I couldn't post them.
John
03/02/2007 6:33 am
Thank you John, now I know what date to look for. I think I know some collections where I may at least LOOK at the pictures!
S'
David D.
03/02/2007 6:21 pm
Here are the links to all three parts of Dale's original postings:
part 1: http://www.steamboats.org/talkshop/messages/1810.html
part 2: http://www.steamboats.org/talkshop/messages/1935.html
part 3: http://www.steamboats.org/talkshop/messages/1964.html
Franz
03/02/2007 7:34 pm
As I remember the final years of the Greene Line between Louisville and Cincinnati, they did not go into bulk shipments. As the package trade dwindled they went in for automobile transport; Chevrolets from Cincinnati to Louisville and Fords from Louisville to Cincinnati. They used the Cary-Bird, an ex-ferry and were able to cram between eighty and a hundred cars aboard. The cabins of the Tom and the Chris were removed and cars were carried on the boiler deck. In addition they dismantled the Ouachita and hauled semi-trailers on her. The final straw for the packet business was a strike against the Greene Line by the Teamsters Union, which saw their drivers losing work. The remaining package and LCL stuff could not support the boats and they were laid up. The Gordon C. Greene and the Delta Queen were all they had left. The Gordon Greene sort of committed a gradual harakiri and was sold.
03/02/2007 7:43 pm
I was wrong. The Cary-Bird carried only about fifty automobiles per trip. There is a pictuire of her, loaded, in the Waterways Journal of August 2, 2004.
04/02/2007 9:26 pm
See the Greene Line barge thread for pix of the CARY BIRD, TOM, and CHRIS in auto hauling days.