Tourist Boats

Not Really So Bad

Was watching a movie the other day in which an old steamship, on the way to the scrapyard, was bought by a producer and used as the setting of the movie, being sunk, really, at the last. It was remarked during the movie that the life expectancy of a ship such as that one, was about 30 years. So, the Delta Queen wins hands down, beating the odds by about 50 years. The MQ was about on par. The older riverboats did well to operate 10 years. Therefore, the Gordon Greene and the Golden Eagle, both which had been packets, so were up in years, did pretty well. And this is not factoring in changing times and tastes, economics, war, idiots in Congress, obsolescence, etc., just the age.

*Pure 'tourist boats'/Where there others?*
Greetings, Steamboat colleagues on this cold, rainy Sunday in Ragtown,
Jim, Lexie and the Howard Museum gang, 'yes,' there were the six listed totally 'pure tourist boats' as you indicate in your above. All very interesting. This posting has begged the question on Steamboats.org over the last several years. A number of the real old timers [boats] began their careers as working packets; then branched off in season or then totally into the then emerging river steamboat cruise business. The term often used then until not too many years ago was "trip" or "trippin" and not "cruise" as we hear today. When the total 'packet business' began to play out, some companies saw the advantage for extra revenue in entering boats totally in that trade. Others combined their normal scheduled packet trips appealing to vacationers. The GREENE LINE did this with the CHRIS & TOM GREENE. Tourism was coming into vogue for cruises on river steamers similar to ocean ships. The GREENE LINE went one step beyond linking up with emerging tourist offices and companies [CARTAN was one] scheduling even group cruises via then railroad, buses and later aircraft to and from Cincinnati for the GORDON and DELTA QUEEN. Capt. Tom Greene was thinking big making a total break with the old days. A number of locals here just hopped the street car with luggage for the trip down town; then hiking it down to the landing to board. Others dropped off by local cars or taxis. That's the way it was then.

In some ways present travel companies and cruise boats are missing the mark on promoting river cruises to a great degree. The rivers are there but often the business plans lag. Many now also booking river cruises in Europe, Russia, China, South America, Nile. The potential is here beyond the romantic Mark Twain focus on just the Mississippi.

Business records, old docoments, letters show there was an emerging 'market' even back then for packets to deviate from their usual schedules offering Mardi Gras and other cruises at other times of the year. The QUEEN CITY did more than one total cruise to Mardi Gras as did the big, newer CINCINNATI in 1924. Okay, I hear now, "but that's not pure." Then came packets doing weekend trips, 'meet the boat trips' from many major towns and cities. Financial records, dockets also indicate the heaviest freight months were in the late fall and winter. A few boats encouraged holiday travelers on their scheduled runs for Thanksgiving, Christmas with all stops pulled out for fine food. That is if weather and river ice conditons coopearated. The late Letha C. Greene often mentioned to me about her tossing, turning at night wondering if the Mardi Gras trip would book and what the river conditions would be. To me Mrs. Greene always used the term "steamer" and not "steamboat."

The famed ANCHOR LINE out of St. Louis at times carried on usual runs many passengers going to Mardi Gras or hunters in the fall months headed down for game and bird shooting expeditions. Summer time appealed to many in time for trips in good weather. I seem also to remember the steamers doing tourist trips down to Mammoth Cave.

At the time Commodore Fred Laidley was planning construction of his then new CITY OF CINCINNATI, CITY OF LOUISVILLE, INDIANA, Capt. Ellis mace encougaged him to think of the emerging pleasure cruise aspect of his boats. Mace looked at the boat plans suggesting running the decks totally around to the stern forming a gallery for passengers to promendade, sit to enjoy the scenery. It also begs the question if the big CINCINNATI could have survied in time as a pure 'tourst steamer' if the Great Depression hadn't caused such financial, social, political distress. We may never know. Yet, the CINCINNATI was but within a few years of the same age as the GORDON C. GREENE, DELTA KING & DELTA QUEEN. It all boiled down then as now to the bottom line on the finance ledger books.

Veteran steam engineer, John G. Gibbs graphically wrote of the 1879 ROBT. E. LEE II trip totally devoted to the Mardi Gras that year. This trip when the LEE ran her engine through with drastic results. Hysteria, mahem broke loose until they got her throttle shut down and under control. Gibbs, and others, found her engines has been from the racer ROBT. E. LEE; thus, in professional opinions, stressed by that record race leading to the later disaster. At this late date who really knows for sure? Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

*'Tourist boats/BETSY ANN in part*
Steamboating colleagues,
Well, I rolled and tossed last night thinking of other possible 'semi-tourst' steamboats as per Jim Reising's initial posting kicking the discussion off. EUREKA! I dug in my 'dusty boxes' resurrecting a now long ago folder for the Str. BETSY ANN during the time Capt. Fred Way owned her under the 'Independent Packet Co.' from 1925-1931. Fred even then had that twinkle in his eye possibly seeing the potential for a good thing. That was in good weather months. Fred got fancy printing a blue/green folder with pictures touting his BETSY ANN for vacations. Plan was to run her from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati and Louisville for roughly a week cruise [i.e. 'trip']. The BETSY increasingly slacked off in general freight deliveries to minimal other than a few wharfboats along the way. The pure packet freight business was rapidly dying by the late by 1920s to 1930 + with the handwriting on the wall. The Greenes sniffed the air detecting events converting the TOM & CHRIS GREENE to totally freight/auto carriers by 1936.

The BETSY trip rates at $40 with all included. This calculates out today via the Federal Reserve as on/around $550 in today's rate. The boat did have running water in her cabins but public baths/lavatories were down the cabin for passenger use and comfort. How many here booked those often termed 'skid row' cabins on the DELTA QUEEN with no toilets but running hot/cold water? Good manners meant dressing or putting on a robe to dart over to the facilities or to shower. The one I vividly recall had one or two toilets, urinal and shower stall. The GORDON C. GREENE wasn't much better. Others know more about public facilities on the GOLDEN EAGLE [Keith?]. Night boats with, short-time passengers, could offer less. When longer 'tourist' trips developed paying passengers demanded more. Today it's large cabins, full bath facilities, private deck areas outside. The fun of the DQ was being able to sit outside talking, able to walk all the way around.

With disposable income, time, vacationers on river steamboats desired to move up to something better. The DELTA QUEEN offered that--somewhat. How many recall the convenient white porcelain chamber pots under beds in many cabins? This an old custom going way, way back on steamboats, ships, hotels, inns--even private homes. That's the way it was then. Capt. Tom Greene pondered in his plans to convert the bigger DQ to a tourist vessle from her original intent as a night boat--often with mixed opinions from passengers. Even Betty Blake was compelled to soften her high-power PR appeal for the DQ stating, "Take her for what she is."

Another factor was the need for good ventilation, air-conditioning until CARRIER CO. developed large units for boats, ships, hotels and eventually homes. Old timers told of the heat aboard steamboats in the summer. Cabin windows, doors, bow/stern doors and cabin transoms only way to provide ventilation. I recall more than one summer hot trip on the DQ with the air system laboring to keep up. One trip many of us just slept out on deck in chairs at night with one midnight temperature registering 98. Today's big blue water cuise ships couldn't exist without air-conditioning. Many river/ocean vessels also had general forced air ventilation via powerful fan via ducts, funnels on deck. How many remember the two big curved ventilators on the DQ bow leading below decks to engine and crew spaces? Another factor afloat was increasing use of referigrators, frozen food lockers. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

I am loving this thread!

Dale, you mentioned Mrs. Greene referring to the boats as "steamers" not "steamboats". When I started on the DELTA QUEEN in 1975, the company name had already been changed to Delta Queen Steamboat Co., but on the boat itself, we always called the boat "the Steamer DELTA QUEEN" and referred to it as such in announcements, etc. The logo "STR. DELTA QUEEN" was painted on liferings and even on the Volkswagen the boat carried on the bow. The crew of the NATCHEZ refers to that boat as the "Steamer NATCHEZ" regularly in radio communications, etc.

As both Lexie and Dale have mentioned, changing times, laws, tastes and so forth have all contributed to the changes we've seen in river steamboating. The DQ was about as perfect as Tom Greene could get for the changing tastes after WWII -- people were becoming accustomed to private baths in hotels, and they were also beginning to demand air conditioning. While the DQ's air conditioning system was not what we'd want today, it was a vast improvement over what the older boats had had, which was nothing. The tiny rooms were not an issue for most folks, and some did not mind a bit going "down the hall" for bathroom facilities, but since most rooms had private baths, the DQ was ideal. Changing times and tastes over the last 57 years have rendered the DQ and her amenities obsolete in the minds of many, if not most.

That being said, I do hope the old gal is able to return to running. The old girl does have that special, undeniable "something".

While the DQ was on the ways at Dravo being converted from a Sacremento River boat to a Mississippi River cruiser, Capt. Charles T. Campbell inspected the vessel with Tom Greene. Campbell was truly the father of modern Ohio River transportation. Fred Way once wrote in the Reflector that while they were kiting checks on the BETSY ANN, Campbell was making millions on the same river towing barges. After looking over the DQ, Campbell opined that the DQ, as nice as it was, was not up to the demands the traveling public would expect in 1947. He proposed to Tom Greene that he would finance a new and better boat and lease it to the Greene Line. Tom Greene turned the offer down.
One has to wonder what would have happened had Tom Greene sold the DQ to the Coney Island Co. to replace the ISLAND QUEEN and had taken Campbell up on his offer.

*Campbell's offer/Tom Greene's flat "No"*
Steamboating colleagues,
Jim, your above thought provoking posting is more than food for thought after all these years with a lot of other "what ifs...possibly...could have beens." And I don't know the answers. Heavy bulk was making Campbell, and others, millions. Campbell was on the mark--somewhat--in his thinking about the DQ and the "traveling public...in 1947." With the DQ on the ways at DRAVO, the bills were coming down on the GREENE LINE like rain in an Indian monsoon. And there had been 'thinking' earlier on the GL building all totally new for the emerging market. A lot of the DQ conversion, outfitting, decorating became a 'cottage industry' for the GL, employees and even Mrs. Greene and friends cutting, sewing cabin curtains. They were a 'hands on' management constantly 24/7/52 without high flying corporate executives. They followed, as I've written before, the MBWA thinking from General Motors--'Mangement by walking around.'

The offer for the DQ to run in the CONEY ISLAND trade didn't last very long. After the ISLAND QUEEN disaster, CEO Ed Schott at CONEY looked in the books seeing the already then decrease in the boat's excursion business. He'd then had a belly full of excursion boats and backed totally out. Remember, the IQ had been bigger and all steel--not that that meant one thing when she went KABOOM! The DQ was, granted, smaller but with all the wood superstructure to deal with, strip out, modernize. Even then the CG was looking askance at a wood superstructure with all those passengers. Not that the upperworks couldn't have been built in steel or aluminum as later Mr. Simonton and Mr. Muster thought. Ed Schott got even more cold chills.

For years prior, martime experts, designers, engineers wrote in other national publications to their trade commenting on the "older thinking interests have on the Ohio/Mississippi Rivers still building in wood following the old custom." Keith, you, Kenny know the rest of the story facing the Howards when they saw the light, converted over to more modern designs with steel hulls, upperworks, more economical diesel engines. A fact of life we can't deny now.

The GL carried the big bank note on the DQ from then until down to 1958 when Mrs. Greene sold out with Richard Simonton coming in, picking up the note and the business as a major share holder. If not it would have been the end then and there. Even Mrs. Greene whispered to some saying, "Right now the DELTA QUEEN is the biggest white elephant in the country." New marketing, new PR, new images and profile was needed with, eventually, Betty Blake coming in full steam ahead.

Another question that turns in my mind is what would have happened if Capt. Tom Greene had taken a flyer on purchasing, renovating BOTH the DELTA QUEEN & DELTA KING? Fred Way wrote, talked about he and Topm Greene on the GORDON C. GREENE after a big steamboat dinner. Tom dropped the proposal to Fred saying, "I'm thinking of having one of em'...maybe both." Chances are with two boats around their necks it all would have died early on or, possibly, one being sold continuing the business on with the other. All the rest is history. Again, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Dale,
If the GL had both boats, what would have happened when the DQ "ran 'er through" and the DK engines were appropriated for the repair? The would have been a completely different scenario!!
Interesting thoughts. If anyone wonders about accommodations, just think back to the house you grew up in, and thought was quite fine. By today's housing standards, it probably would be condemned! I know the one I grew up in would--heck you could stand in the center of the house, lick your finger and hold it up, and tell which way the wind was blowing outside! (and it SNOWED where we lived, no beach house that was!). My Brother & I shared a room, and when My sister was born, my folks put up a screen to make her a room. She was about 6 when we moved into the new house & we both had our own rooms--9' x 13' they were--and I had an upright player piano in mine along with the bed & dresser! (Well, not when we first moved in, but just after I graduated from High School). Our two rooms were made by putting up a dividing wall in what was listed on the house plans as a single bedroom/family room.
Maybe this is one reason I never thought twice about the accommodations on the DQ--my family's summer resort still rents out 1923 cabins that are much like the DQ accommodations! Folks seem to love the "step back in time" they get there.

*GL owning the DK/DQ--Ummmm*
Hi, David and Steamboating colleagues,
Good question but with possibly a poor response from me as no 'expert' period. Another of those "ifs...possibly...buts." IF the GL had indeed purchased both DK/DQ running in tandem, it would have been a whole different matter when the DQ ran through herself at Rock Island. It got big press here in Cincinnati and I remember it well. No doubt it would have cost a ton having a new engine cast, milled here in town. FRISBEE probably one of the few machine shops with experience in steamboat engines even then. Their plant and office just a short walk west from the GL wharfbot on the Cincinnati Public Landing.

As it was the engine that failed wasn't even original to the 1920s. During W.W. II, when DQ was running navy transport in 'Frisco, 'something' happened to that engine. Bramwell Fanning was a young sailor on the DQ then remembering it well. Old Jim Burns, supervising engineer on the original DK/DQ porject, was around to offer advice to the U.S. Navy crew. He also, at an advancing age, was working for the U.S. Govt. as insepector of landing craft being built. A whole new enigine was cast, milled out there and installed. Fanning was on duty when the engine was delivered later saying/writing, "That new engine cost the U.S. Government more money than Capt. Tom Greene paid for the whole boat in 1947." Another frightening IF to consider is if the U.S. Navy didn't spring for the new engine then the boat possibly laid up or lost before the end of the war. They could have pinch hit with the DK employing another vessel for the dual troop transport job. Food for thought but, again, mere speculation based in possible realities of the day.

That engine was problematic for some years even down to when Chief Engineer Charlie Deitz 'listened' to it with his medical stethescope saying to Fred Way. "I've had my stethescope on this big, fat cylinder on the port side this morning and sounds like she's got a spark plug missing." His keen ears, skills no doubt a possible premonition to what happened latter. Yet, how would any of us know today? I have here in my old 35 mm. slides one taken of the DQ when she returned to Cincinnati after that disastrous season. They again disconnected that engine with the pitman and crank off and a big canvas protective awning covering all while they again worked. A comment was made by somebody I can't remember now saying, "We always wondered why some things never 'matched up' with that engine working on it." Again, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Dale,
I remember reading about the engine situation during WWII, but didn't know that the engine had been problematic! As I recall, the patterns were still around when the event happened.
Lots of speculation, eh??? I hope someday someone writes a book about this, but then how many out there want to know "everything" about the boat???
S'
David D.

David, I am living in the same house I grew up in - never had anything else, other than my FQ apartment, and I know that when this place is sold (being a House Hunters addict), that if it cannot be torn down, it will be totally redone. As I sit here, I can feel the drafts from lack of insulation, but I also know how sturdy the house structure is. When it had termites last year, the inspector told me that the hard wood used back in the 1915 era attracts termites but that they couldn't damage it enough to have to replace it, and that if this place were newer, I would be staring at big bills for replacement of the newer softer wood. I don't have an open concept here, it doesn't 'flow', no stainless steel appliances or crown molding, etc. etc. etc. but it is fine with me. Probably why I like the DQ too - comfortable but simple - and why I didn't care for the 'bathrobe era' on her. My first trip in 1973 we had 131 and 130, the two rooms aft of the doorways near the stern. Our bathroom was across that doorway, complete with showers. And we had a most elegant large sitting area with our rooms, the After Cabin (Betty Blake) Lounge. Life couldn't have been any better!

*Judy's memories of the DQ in Rock Island*
Steamboating colleagues,
Judy, reading your posting above reminds me that you are probably the only person I know who was in Rock Island when the DQ 'ran through herself' with you seeing the boat laid up, work in progress, right? Again, it got big news here in Cincinnati at the time. I also heard a lot about it from the old GREENE LINE gang here. Later, Mrs. Letha C. Greene wrote about the incident in detail when she penned her book, 'Long Live the DELTA QUEEN.' Worth the time for any of you to pick up a copy in the local library if they have it, or visit your local old book store. Makes a nice addition to our river libraries. Her son, Tom Greene, Jr., an acomplished artist, did the fine black art work to enhance the publication. Getting the replacement engine from the DELTA KING via, I 'think,' FLYING TIGERS air service and logistics of tranport was a lucky break. The GL also got the wheel shaft from the DK bringing it to Cincinnati where it lay outside of FRISBEE Co. near the Public Landing on wood cradles painted now and then. But that's another story.

The DQ engineers, oilers and others slaved to remove the damaged parts from the previous engine with barked knuckles, badly cut fingers. There was a 'trip doctor' on the boat tending to the crew with cuts. A nurse was aboard from here at Cincinnati General Hospital on vacation who offered her assistance.

Seems to me they tried every method known to man to get those jammed, frozen parts out using cold with ice, heat. I think they ended up also using cold chisels to break it free. Kenny Howe and Jim Reising no doubt know more. At the end of the job, the crew gave the nurse, and others, pieces/fragments of the metal as a souvenir. Letha Greene later commented, "I thought it was all over then and there."

David, indeed they did have the specifications and technical plans for her engines. Orginally the company of CHARLES EVANS in 'Frisco saw to the engines, their mounting. I have no idea if EVANS was in business or had the same capacity during W.W. II but will check. Remember, it was war time with vital materials in short supply, many men away in service. If Mr. Fanning ever knew I can't remember. Fanning was on duty in uniform when the new engine was brought aboard. Another IF is IF the U.S. Navy tried to go to EvANS or had to get an emergency 'bid' out to another firm. Some firms could do casting and milling, but not have expertise in steamboat engines and equipment. A good question. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

While I have most all of the books written about the DQ & DK, I can't get to them right now. As I recall, one of the boats also had some extensive hull work done too, as the naval guys broke through a plate cleaning them for painting.
So, while you're checking on the engine re-maker, maybe you can check that out too.
I do remember when they were restoring the DK, they claimed the hull was in excellent shape--except for where the large "picture windows" had been cut out during one of the aborted restaurant conversions. (These "window' cuttings are why she sunk for 18 months, I'm told)

*DQ hull work/Books/Vital records*
Steamboating colleagues:
David, you are correct on your memories of "DQ hull work in Navy days etc." Many of us here on Steamboats.org through the years have found, collected, researched information. I had the luck to meet, know, interview John Burns, son of old Jim Burns who supervised the DK/DQ project for the 'California Transportation Co.' Stan Garvey did a wonderful job researching his 'KING & QUEEN of the River.' This a must reference book done in two printings. I also wrote to Scotland for records from DENNY BROS. Dumbarton, Scotland; then KRUPP in Germany. My files have grown and grown along with letters, phone calls. Years back I watched, listened, asked questions from the gang around the old GREENE LINE. I learned a lot from Betty Blake helping her where I could. Jim Reising, Kenny Howe, Keith, Lexie, Capt. Clarke Hawley and many, many others have memories of pure gold.

In turn, KRUPP STEEL, Essen, Germany, kindly responded to my letters in detail--English and German in two copies. They claimed "no association, work on the DELTA boat project" as assumed, reported. All of KRUPP's records survived the W.W. II years. A report of seeing a "German Iron Cross" on some metal is, in fact, a kind of modified logo from the 'Darlington Works, in Great Britain, one of the many suppliers to the original construction, fitting out. DENNY also had B/W photos taken of the assembed hulls on their ways before being knocked down, marked, shipped to California for insurance purposes. I have all those shipping records down to the very last nut, bolt and screw. There are a few who believe DENNY built the DK/DQ totally from hull to upper superstructure but that isn't the case. All upperworks in wood done here using lumber from the west coast with fine teak from Asia.

The U.S. Navy, naturally, put the DQ in dock for hull examination, painting. One day a 'swabbie' was chipping, painting on the DQ bow when his hammer broke through a rusted bow plate, fell inside. The original DENNY hull galvanizing added life to the hull--somewhat. The bows of any vessel experience hydraulic friction underway. This shaved off the galvanizing down to base metal; thus allowing rust. Also hulls can 'rust from the inside' if there isn't proper ventilation in spaces, compartments. Capt. Bill Judd and others know a lot about that. We did post/discuss this on .org several years ago.

I'm not informed about the DK "picture windows" but have color prints here of the boat sunk for that 18 months. Stan Garvey showed excellent slides of the inside of the DK after she was raised at an S&D September meeting years ago. What a mess! Hard to believe they have done with her what we see today. A virtual 'silk purse out of a sow's ear.' Well, again, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Dale, I'm not surprised about the rusted bow section of the DQ found during her navy days. The boats were stern heavy and they kept ballast water in the forepeak to balance out the boats. One thing I learned from my experience with steel hull houseboats....a steel hull will rust much quicker from the inside than it will from the outside. It is very important to keep the inside dry. That was one of the reasons I wrote about "the next step" in preserving the Grand Old Dame...the important thing is maintenance. That "new" hull is now about 20 years old and unless it is kept dry, rust will take over. And, once the exemption is granted, with all the other expenses getting the boat running again, the new owners don't want to face having to replace hull plates. Steel is expensive and so are welders. A dollar spent keeping the hull dry now will save ten dollars in hull repairs down the line.

DQ RI layup

Dale, I spent over an hour Thursday typing up my memories of that layup and finding pix, and then my internet went dead and all was lost. It is still out and I'm typing from church now. Hopefully this weekend I can get it redone and posted.

Dale,
I was onboard the trip when Stan Garvey did his talk on his book, and I did one on "The DQ & DK, not Twins Anymore" comparing the two boats at that present time (living near Sacramento, it was easy for me to get pics of the DK). Stan paid me a big compliment telling me, "I thought I was the only one crazy about these boats!"
I hope someone (hint, hint!) writes another book using all the photos, and the gathered information & experiences over the past decades (hint, hint!).
🙂
S'
David D.
PS, "Well, what do I know?" Apparently quite a lot, Dale!!!
🙂

It wasn't the engine that failed, the pitman strap broke which caused the piston to travel too far forward and the piston jammed into the forward cylinder head as I remember what happened that fateful day at Rock Island in Sept. 1954. Was it the starboard side high pressure engine or the LP side?

*DQ 'balast/forepeak/hull*
Steamboating colleagues:
Jim, right you are about the DQ and, no doubt, DK "forepeak" with balast water for trim. Capts. Tom Greene, Fred Way and Chief Charlie Deitz also found no few tons of 'pig iron' also in those bow areas. I can't remember if Fred Way mentioned much more in the REFLECTOR, but he did quip to me with that elfish smiie, "Tom Greene made a nice little sum selling that pig iron."

Ventilation/dehumidifcation on ANY boat or vessle no matter how small or large is vital. Navy, passenger, private yachts, sail boats etc. need to be vented. This a problem with many 'museum ships' or floating 'boatels' when you step aboard getting a whif of that damp, mold, mildew. I daresay the present DQ hull has now about or well exceeded the limit of permitted depreciation. One of the biggest jobs on repairing/restoring the Str. W.P. SNYDER, Ohio River Museum, Marietta, was careful 'blasting,' cleaning, sealing, painting of the inside hull compartments using, of all things, ground up walnut shells. But that's another story. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Jim's posting is very enlightening--not having seen photos of the damage, but it explains why some have expressed to me great concern about the age of the Pittman arms. They still look very substantial, BUT. . . . . .
BTW, I believe it was the LP side; but I could be wrong--I only have a 50/50 chance of being right! 🙂
S'
David D.

*Was Fred Way's BETSY ANN a 'first' tourist boat*
Steamboating colleagues:
Never thought the discussions above on the 'first tourist' boats would continue. I've had more than a few private E=Mails with questions, ideas, observations. The other day I rang up J.W. 'Woody' Rutter, Capt. Fred Way's son-in-law; husband of Fred's daughter Bee. Woody thought a moment about Fred's early experiments in the then emerging 'tourist boat' business. I heard file cabinets opening and closing, desk chair sliding on the floor. Woody not only remembered, but pulled out folders on Fred's BETSY ANN with detailed information, clippings, brochures dating back to the summer of 1930--and earlier to 1928. as mentioned above, Fred, according to Woody, did in 1930 begin a series of summer cruises but limiting most packet freight stops from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati and on to Louisville only "if there was a wharfboat."

Then this week a brown envelope arrived from Woody with an excellent copy of a fine promotional booklet printed in gold and green bound with a rather fancy silk green tie cord: 'Special Summer Cruises. Pittsburgh to Louisville, Steamer BETSY ANN,' "Most picturesque River Trip in America." Further printed information in detail: all dates of departure and arrival, schedules, tariffs at $40 but for late August/September cruises at $50." That was a tidy sum in the depths of 1930 and the Great Depression. "Return from Louisville via the Pennsylvania Railroad for the 8 day cruise." Other dates for the BETSY were reported as sold out "CHARTER CRUISES." I've written to Woody asking now about these early 'CHARTER CRUISES' and how organized.

Woody's additional memories recalled that "...the BETSY ANNB in 1930 lost money all summer long--not enough rooms on the boat." With reduced freight buisiness, lack of more rooms, she lost money. In those days freight paid the way with passengers being the cream at the top. With it being Prohibition years, no idea if the BETSY had a bar aboard. No doubt many passengers found a way to trundle their own liquid 'refreshments' over the landing stage no matter what. Shore stops not mentioned, but no doubt included as per river conditions. Her "Kentucky State Fair" trip was 10 days at $50 with a "Stop included at Lincoln Farm, Kentucky." I have no idea about Lincoln Farm. Who knows? Jim Reising, Kenny, Keith?

By comparison, I pulled WAY'S PACKET DIRECTORY noting his entrance for the GOLDEN EAGLE Pg. 191, Entry No. 2366. Fred's detailed entry mentions the GOLDEN EAGLE after the sale of the CAPE GIRARDEAU. 'EAGLE PACKET CO. renovated her [GE] as a tourist boat in 1935." By a stretch of the mind, and research, could Fred Way have really been on the cutting edge moving from packet service to 'tourst boat' as early as 1930 and possibly earlier to 1928-1929? The question is open for discussion or debate. A good question and I'd never claim to be an 'expert' in any field. Again, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Again, great discussion. I remember reading somewhere a quote from Capt. Mary Greene on passenger business, which I THINK was before the GCG went "tourist". She said something to the effect of "people think they know about the river....but I wonder if they really do" referring to passenger operations.

On another note, there are two great articles in the S&D REFLECTOR about passenger/tourist operations on the CINCINNATI, one written by Fred Way in a (1973???) REFLECTOR and another by Dale Flick in a fairly recent issue. All very enlightening, and even then the operators had a tough time making a "go" of it.

Imagine complaints about air conditioning (or lack thereof), plumbing, etc., hogchains running up through the middle of rooms, vermin aboard, as well as crew issues and whatnot. The more things change, the more they stay the same...some of the same problems are dealt with today, some are different, but there's always SOMETHING.

I'd say the Greenes were fortunate in that they had very loyal key people who would work for them no matter what -- Capt. Jesse Hughes, Bob McCann, Charlie Dietz and even Fred Way. I've heard many times that the Greenes didn't pay much, yet they kept those dedicated key personnel on their boats ensuring success. They even had a large family to enlist help sewing new curtains, etc. for the DQ when she entered Ohio/Mississippi service. Letha Greene spoke of donating the family grand piano from her living room because the boat needed it. You won't get that from any corporation running those boats now, no way, no how. They made it, yet they struggled even with those advantages. Interesting thread!

Just yesterday we received in the mail a brochure for Nostalgic Calm Water cruises on the St Lawrence River. The boat, the M/V CANADIAN EMPRESS, built 1981, 108 x 30 feet. 32 staterooms, 13 crew. I admit to not knowing about this boat before yesterday. Trips sound interesting. That being said a quick look over the fare structure shows fares approx of least expensive room of 366 to 407 depending on season, most expensive rooms 549 to 610 CANADIAN DOLLARS for a three night trip/ Six day trip 260 to 407, least costly room to 260 to 520 most expensive rooms CANADIAN DOLLARS.

So very roughly $300.00USD per day per person to $419.00.

How does this fit in with who invented the Tourist Boat Trade in the Midwest USA, doesn't really but with the brochure from Canada in hand I thought it interesting.

As to Either the Betsy Ann or any other boat I suspect the population numbers in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati & Louisville may have the trade more of a possibility than say the Upper Mississippi & Lower Miss during that time.

St Lawrence River Cruise Co.

Re Mr.Blums post.Looks like that is the St.Lawrence River Cruise Co and they $1221 an 6 night I guess 6 day $3297 Excuse the $1221 is for 3 day. the 6 day is $3297 They have a colorful and nice website. Carole Matthews Pompano Beach Fla 33064 excuse the confusion an spelling

*Capt. Fred Way's comments on the BETSY ANN venture*
Steamboating colleagues,
Further calls, letters, digging on the 'Tourist Boat' ventures discussed here brought another prompt response from J.W. 'Woody' Rutter, Capt. Fred's son-in-law. "As for a bar [On the BETSY ANN] with adult beverages available, I agree that a boat with southern ownership prior to U.S. Prohibition would have had one--and probably a one-armed Bandit or two but not (visible) in 1930." Woody penned. [Note] A number of steamboats in the palmy days did have a bar and even a barber shop aboard often on a 'lease' arrangement/agreement/sub contractor with the boat owner. This common today even in hotels, resorts, cruise ships.

Woody kindly reminded me of what Capt. Fred Way penned in his classic book 'Log of the BETSY ANN.' EURKEA! there it was in black and white and I should have known better to looked earlier. Fred Way pens. "In May, 1930 we announced to the waiting river world that the BETSY ANN would operate as an independent packet in the Pittsburgh and Louisville trade...and we proposed to cater to the tourist trade exclusively--with what little freight we could pick up from time to time. The BETSY ANN was taken to the marine ways at Madison, Indiana, and there fixed up from top to bottom. She blossomed forth decked out in fresh pant. A huge wooden anchor was hung between her smokestacks as a decoration.

The BETSY ANN attracted attention by operating in an "odd" trade. Two other craft in steamboat history had tried it--one in 1900 and the other in 1915. The BETSY ANN was full to overflowing all summer long, but as a financial venture, the profit "was conspicuous by its absence." When fall came along, the BETSY ANN went to the bank in the red. The absence of freight revenues had not allowed for a healthy outcome of the enterprise.

There were other attempts made after that to recoup our losses, but in the main the whole effort was a pitiful, futile struggle. Breakdowns, losses, accidents, and the terror of slow drains to bank accounts. I am content to draw a curtain of charity over the whole of it." END

Does any of the above have a familiar echo? Years back Mrs. Letha Greene commented on the side of her own situation following the death of Capt. Tom Greene. "With a steamboat you have a marine operation, personnel, hotel department, food, beverage, passengers, office staff, entertainment--and I inherited it all." Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati