Whistle mystery on the INDIANA

Whistle mystery...2

Now look at the INDIANA on her trial run just a few days later......there's the MINNIE BAY's whistle all installed and looking natural.

The original picture shows a rather "thrown together" 2 bell chime of unscaled whistles, while the latter picture shows a rather standard 3 bell chime. The long, skinny whistle in the pair in the original picture would tend to overblow before the shorter fat whistle could be fully blown. Fatter whistles of larger scale blow much louder and smoother than skinnier whistles of smaller scale. My guess is that the first whistle was just an experimental attempt while the second whistle is what was finally decided on by virtue of its better sound.

Or, could the first pictures show them in the process of bending the manifold pipe for the forward whistle in the Minnie Bay set. The big middle whistle is temporarily out on another elbowed pipe to facilitate bending of the pipe for the little forward whistle.

Just thinking outside the box.

Aaron

Another View

here's another view from a different angle of the original whistle.

Jim,

You don't think there was a "house whistle" that was used to facilitate a trial run, perhaps? Since none of the whistles in this rather strange one are similar in size and/or diameter to the whistle she came out with, I can't see hypothesizing it was the same whistles on a different manifold.

My guess is it was a house whistle used to get a trial run done while they were waiting on the delivery of the MINNE BAY whistle. Cause I can't imagine they'd have taken her out with out anything. With out radio and radar that would be just plain dangerous! Who'd know she was comin around 6 Mile and/or Goose Island upbound? Or for that matter into the canal?

Travis

Let's stir the pot some more. So the whistles in these early shots of the Indiana all look the same as the Minnie Bay set. What's the purpose of the extra pipe on the big one. Could be that the big whistle would not easily come off the old pipe so they just added it anyway they could and then somehow finally got it off and added it the right way? Now we need pictures of the whistle on the Minnie Bay. Did it have the bent pipe manifold while it was on the Minnie? Or is the Indiana whistle a piece or pieces of the Minnie Bay whistle? I enjoy whistle mysteries of course they are hard to solve now.

The whistles shown in the first picture are not the two of the three shown in the second picture with the largest whistle left out. Note that the two whistles in the first picture are of roughly the same diameter, but of different working lengths, thus being of different scales. That is why I referred to them as being thrown together. The diameters of the three whistles in the second picture vary with their working length, thus are scaled as a chime.

AJ Richardson;22452 wrote: Or, could the first pictures show them in the process of bending the manifold pipe for the forward whistle in the Minnie Bay set. The big middle whistle is temporarily out on another elbowed pipe to facilitate bending of the pipe for the little forward whistle.

Just thinking outside the box.

Aaron

I believe Travis is on the right track. I believe it was something hurredly thrown together or maybe kept on hand so that the boat could have one for a test run. It didn't have to sound good, but just provide a warning.

Travis Vasconcelos;22456 wrote: Jim,

You don't think there was a "house whistle" that was used to facilitate a trial run, perhaps? Since none of the whistles in this rather strange one are similar in size and/or diameter to the whistle she came out with, I can't see hypothesizing it was the same whistles on a different manifold.

My guess is it was a house whistle used to get a trial run done while they were waiting on the delivery of the MINNE BAY whistle. Cause I can't imagine they'd have taken her out with out anything. With out radio and radar that would be just plain dangerous! Who'd know she was comin around 6 Mile and/or Goose Island upbound? Or for that matter into the canal?

Travis

Well they say the first thing to go is the eyesight. I'm not seeing what you fellas are. The whistles all look exactly the same. The different picture angles might be playing tricks but I'd guess a 7 or 8" for the big one, 5 or 6" for the aft whistle and 3 or 4" for the forward one. The manifold in all the pictures looks the same too. We'll I'm not an expert just dable in whistle history, construction, use, etc. Cap'n Bates what are those measurements for the Indiana whistle?

What do I know?

Aaron

You are looking at the third picture posted. In it the whistles are scaled and it appears there may be room for a fourth whistle on the manifold. Travis and I are talking about the view in the first two pictures to be posted. The very first picture posted in this thread shows two unscaled whistles of approximately the same diameter but of very different working lengths. The latter pictures show three scaled whistles whose diameter varies with their working lengths.

AJ Richardson;22461 wrote: Well they say the first thing to go is the eyesight. I'm not seeing what you fellas are. The whistles all look exactly the same. The different picture angles might be playing tricks but I'd guess a 7 or 8" for the big one, 5 or 6" for the aft whistle and 3 or 4" for the forward one. The manifold in all the pictures looks the same too. We'll I'm not an expert just dable in whistle history, construction, use, etc. Cap'n Bates what are those measurements for the Indiana whistle?

What do I know?

Aaron

Maybe I'm just not seeing the same images in this thread either... I don't really see the difference in this 3-chime set, except that the center whistle is on a funny elbow-extension on the manifold prior to the trial run. A few days later on the trial run it looks like a typical 3-chime set, with 3 scaled whistles...

But I don't see how these photos are large enough and clear enough to say with 100% certainty that these are not the same 3 whistles in all photos -- the only difference being the funny center elbow extension on the manifold.

Attached herewith is a photo of the Minnie Bay and close-up of her whistles. Again, the quality it not good enough to say these are the same whistles, but it is roughly the same setup and sizes... ??????

Completely different whistles

To me these are two completely different whistles. I have enlarged them as much as I can. I think that Travis may have the explanation, the first whistle was just temporary while they waited to get the MINNIE BAY's whstle.

Could be. Maybe the slightest difference in length of the largest whistle can be seen by comparing these photos, but even that could be subject to photo aberations. It still looks like the same 3 whistles and manifold to me, with the center whistle on a goofy elbow extension.

The notion of boatyards using temporary "house whistles" during fitting-out makes perfect sense to me, but is that really what we are seeing in this case?

I could be wrong, but how can we be 100% certain about this, unless better photos of these differences come along? I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'm not sure I see significant differences between the 3 whistles, in these photos. (?)

One last "argument" I have is clearly the manifold is the same in all the pictures, there is no argueing that, I think.

If I was Capt. Howard I would know how much my workers disliked carrying heavy whistles to the tops of pilothouses for instalation. (I know this personally from lugging heavy whistles around every year in the summer) If I had a "house" whistle, I'd make sure the darn thing was a single bell to keep my workers from throwing the whole thing in the river from frustration of having to drag it up to the pilothouse knowing it would be coming back down. It's possible as I've seen the Str. Chicamuaga (sp) gong whistle (now in the museum) on several of the Howards boats.

From Steve's pictures of the Minnie Bay it appears that the INDIANA did not re-use her manifold as the whistle are set way further apart while on Minnie.

This has been a fun thread though Jim. Thanks for making us work our brains alittle.

Aaron

Very interesting. This make a minimum of three whistles seen on this boat!

Jim Reising;22475 wrote: To me these are two completely different whistles. I have enlarged them as much as I can. I think that Travis may have the explanation, the first whistle was just temporary while they waited to get the MINNIE BAY's whstle.

Thanks Jim. The photo on the right clearly shows the unscaled two bell chime that I have been talking about. I believe this shows it somewhat better.

Jim Reising;22449 wrote: The INDIANA came out with the whistle from the MINNIE BAY according to Ways Directory, but that whistle did not appear on the boat until just days before it came out. Originally the INDIANA was to have a very strange looking whistle indeed.........just take a look:
Photo 1.....the INDIANA being outfitted at the bank at Howards. She's so close to being finished there is smoke coming from the stack.
Photo 2.....we'll zero in on the whistle that was installed at that time. Strange looking affair, I've never seen one like it either before or since.

Richard,
I'm still not seeing the significant differences you apparently see in these photos...

If you can "blow up" the photos so that the pilot house and smokestacks are the same size in each photo, then maybe those inclined to get measurements of the various whistles can get some fairly accurate numbers. Just a thought.

2 bell unscaled chime in question

I believe I have just made an attachment of the photo in question. It shows an unscaled 2 bell chime. It should now be apparent to everyone that the whistle on the left side of the manifold is significantly longer than the whistle on the right side, but not much different in diameter. That would make the longer, skinnier whistle on the left side of the manifold of smaller scale than the whistle on the right side and much more prone to overblowing before the shorter, fatter whistle on the right could even fully blow.

During quilling such a whistle would start out with the longer, skinnier whistle sounding the lower note and the shorter fatter whistle sounding the higher note. As the valve is opened further a point would be reached where the longer, skinnier whistle would overblow to its 3rd harmonic (in musical terms that's an octave and a fifth) and actually become the higher pitch whistle of the two all while the shorter, fatter whistle continues to blow louder and somewhat higher in pitch.

This is an unstable condition and not a very pretty combination, as the chord drastically changes as the whistle is blown. You want the notes of a chime whistle to track and maintain the chord relationship as the pitches rise during quilling. There is no way this whistle could do that! That would not be a problem with scaled chimes.

All pictures showing 3 bell chimes are more or less scaled, as the diameters of the individual whistles increase with the length.

Richard Weisenberger;22494 wrote: I believe I have just made an attachment of the photo in question. It shows an unscaled 2 bell chime. It should now be apparent to everyone that the whistle on the left side of the manifold is significantly longer than the whistle on the right side, but not much different in diameter.

Just to make sure we are on the same page.. You're saying the photo you posted has only 2 whistles on the manifold? This is definitely NOT what I see in that photo.

I see the same 3 whistles -- due to the camera's angle, the smallest whistle is directly in front of the largest whistle on the goofy elbow extension. The effect of the smallest whistle being directly in front of, and inline with, the largest whistle makes the largest whistle look significantly longer, but it's not. It's a trick of the camera angle. At least, that is what I'm seeing...

If I have missed your point, please feel free to explain again..

3 whistles

I'll try and put these images side by side. I think Steve is exactly right and what I've been saying all along is that there are three whistles in both these images and the only difference from this set up and the later pictures of the Minnie Bay whistle in place is the goofy extension on the big whistle.

On closer inspection you may be right about it being three whistles Steve. I've been seeing it as two whistles all along on this picture, not accounting for that goofy elbow extension which I did not notice earlier. Something like this sure throws you a curve. I'm used to seeing whistle manifolds arranged as a trident with the largest whistle always in the center, just as it appears to be in the other photos. This photo seems to show something completely different. I agree that we definitely need a larger, clearer picture to fully evaluate it.

Steve Huffman;22477 wrote: Could be. Maybe the slightest difference in length of the largest whistle can be seen by comparing these photos, but even that could be subject to photo aberations. It still looks like the same 3 whistles and manifold to me, with the center whistle on a goofy elbow extension.

The notion of boatyards using temporary "house whistles" during fitting-out makes perfect sense to me, but is that really what we are seeing in this case?

I could be wrong, but how can we be 100% certain about this, unless better photos of these differences come along? I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'm not sure I see significant differences between the 3 whistles, in these photos. (?)