How Would YOU Do It ????

If the idea is not limited to overnight steamboating, I would instead run tramp excursions out of various ports. The fun of overnight travel would not be there, but seems like it could be more profitable by going for the excursion trade. (have a large volume of low-fare passengers on short trips, as opposed to catering to a low number of high-fare passengers on long trips).

In other words, what the NATCHEZ, BELLE of LOUISVILLE and BELLE of CINCINNATI are doing now, except move to a new city when the number of passengers drops off. The crews of the NATCHEZ and BELLE's have a perk in that they rarely tramp, so they can go home at night. With tramping, the crew would be living aboard (or in town), but that's the same as with the overnight vessel crews.

There are some logistics, such as advertising ahead before reaching the next port, and the usual red-tape of dealing with the various cities.

I can think of one steamboat that would be ideal to begin tramping with: JULIA BELLE SWAIN. No other steamboats come to mind. I guess a second boat would need to be built... 🙂

Point Well Taken !

Capt. Steve ,
Point well taken ! In fact that idea is just what may carry steamboating into the future ! Just possibly some form of tramping is the ticket or something like what one of the BB River Cruise boats did when it went from Cincinnatti to Pittsburg with the passengers staying shore side hotels at night .
One other idea I would implement for a new and improved steamboat company would be to give repeat passengers a greater fare discount as an incentive for them and their friends and families to make repeat trips .

Steve Huffman;19856 wrote: If the idea is not limited to overnight steamboating, I would instead run tramp excursions out of various ports. The fun of overnight travel would not be there, but seems like it could be more profitable by going for the excursion trade. (have a large volume of low-fare passengers on short trips, as opposed to catering to a low number of high-fare passengers on long trips).

In other words, what the NATCHEZ, BELLE of LOUISVILLE and BELLE of CINCINNATI are doing now, except move to a new city when the number of passengers drops off. The crews of the NATCHEZ and BELLE's have a perk in that they rarely tramp, so they can go home at night. With tramping, the crew would be living aboard (or in town), but that's the same as with the overnight vessel crews.

There are some logistics, such as advertising ahead before reaching the next port, and the usual red-tape of dealing with the various cities.

I can think of one steamboat that would be ideal to begin tramping with: JULIA BELLE SWAIN. No other steamboats come to mind. I guess a second boat would need to be built... 🙂

Ted: I hate to display my abject ignorance, and I may be the only one who does not understand the ins and outs of SOLAS etc, but why could the DQ not continue to run but tie up at night...mebbe from 11:30 PM to 12:30 AM or from dark to dark for that matter? Pax to stay aboard...not hafta stay up town as on the BELL OF CINCY ETC. What would be the legal difference between what is going on now in Chattanooga and doing that?? What is their definition of "ovenight" Cap'n Walnut.

Good Question !!

Tom ,
Good question and I believe that the DQ could very well do just that ! Cruise during the day and then send her daytime passengers to the local hotel for the night .

Tom Schiffer;19860 wrote: Ted: I hate to display my abject ignorance, and I may be the only one who does not understand the ins and outs of SOLAS etc, but why could the DQ not continue to run but tie up at night...mebbe from 11:30 PM to 12:30 AM or from dark to dark for that matter? Pax to stay aboard...not hafta stay up town as on the BELL OF CINCY ETC. What would be the legal difference between what is going on now in Chattanooga and doing that?? What is their definition of "ovenight" Cap'n Walnut.

I believe the big difference in what the Delta Queen is doing now and your proposal of cruising during the day is a matter of jurisdiction. The Delta Queen no longer has a COI and is not overseen by the USCG in any manner. She is governed by the local Fire Marshal as any other hotel would be (I think). In order to cruise, she would have to be given a COI which under current law would only allow 49 overnight passengers.

It would be interesting to know what kind of profit (if any) that Capt. Alan Bernstein made on the recent Belle of Cincinnati cruise to Pittsburgh. He must have made some, as I understand he is planning to do some similar cruises in the future.

Wouldn't she hafta have a COI to carry 49 or less overnight pax or to run daylight only? Cap'n Walnut.

New boats

In addition to Ted's suggestions I think it is very important to design attractive boats. They could be economical to operate diesel powered sternwheelers that looked like old time steamboats. Make them small enough - like Natchez, JBS, Belle of Louisville, so that could go anywhere. Whether they would be overnight boats or just day excursion vessels, make them attractive to the eye so that potential customers, when seeing one of them, would want to take a trip. (No more Mississippi Queens, Please!)

I'm no marine architect, but I was trained as an artist and designer and I can build pretty good models. A few years ago I used a model kit of the Creole Queen and redesigned the superstructure into what I feel is a much more attractive boat. I named it Ohio Valley in honor of the boat that Fred Way had designed in the mid 1920s but was never built. I hope these attached photos of the model get posted along with this text. If not I'll try again, as I'm new to posting photos.

If I saw this boat coming into my landing, I'd sure want to take a ride on it.
And put big air calliopes on the boats that would play automatically or with a keyboard. And have Travis program them.

Beautiful boat, John, I'd love to take a ride on it. You know I've often thought the perfect boat for overnight trade would be the BELLE OF CINCY. I believe you could make some prefabricated cabins and put those in rather reasonably. It's a shame the boats sister is just rotting down. It's seems like the right size and I think it is a good looking boat.

Roger Hilligoss;19863 wrote: I believe the big difference in what the Delta Queen is doing now and your proposal of cruising during the day is a matter of jurisdiction. The Delta Queen no longer has a COI and is not overseen by the USCG in any manner. She is governed by the local Fire Marshal as any other hotel would be (I think). In order to cruise, she would have to be given a COI which under current law would only allow 49 overnight passengers.

Ummmm.....where would the crew sleep? I assume they would be counted as "people" under the definition. Or does the law only apply to passengers? Not sure. Can you operate the DQ with 49 crew members? I think the normal complement is 80.

Capt Ted - I assume you're talking about building a new boat, right?

Good stuff, fellow posters.

John Fryant;19866 wrote:

If I saw this boat coming into my landing, I'd sure want to take a ride on it.
And put big air calliopes on the boats that would play automatically or with a keyboard. And have Travis program them.

Hi John,

That is one beautiful boat there. Looks a lot like the Empress of the North, which by the way, is beautiful and diesel powered with a faux paddlewheel. She also features an electronic, pre programmed calliope, thus also eliminating the need to hire someone to play it. Although if Travis is as smart as I know he is, he will charge you a whole big bundle of cash to allow you to use his talent when he's not there. :O)

Too bad she was not designed to run on the Mississippi.

Paul

Ted Davisson;19853 wrote: So , here is your chance folks to be the CEO of a steamboat company , and to implement all the rules and regulations that YOU believe are necessary to operate a modern day Mississippi River steamboat company .
Here are a few of mine .

1. Operate two boats , one on the upper rivers and one on the lower rivers .

- Great idea on the two boats. Initially I think the two seperate itineraries is also workable. Hopefully a good start would allow both boats to run both ends of the Mississippi, though. Would the Ohio and Tennesee Rivers be included?

2. One centrally located home office ( possibly Memphis ) .

- Also great. MAL tried St Louis as a central location. I really don't know how well that worked.

3. Experienced " Boat People " that are now in charge in the home office .

- AMEN.

4. Better treatment and training of ALL boat personel including pay and chance of advancement .

- Two AMENS.

5. A shorter operating season .

- Not sure about that one. If you lower prices, don't you need to run longer to make money?

6. Better variety and scope of on board entertainment , possibly an on board casino or more non traditional river related song and dance routines .

- Really not sure about that one, but I have a personal bias and I'm willing to recuse myself from that discussion.

7. Fewer employees in the home office .

- Another AMEN. Although I'm not sure where the cuts would be made.

8. Better marketing of the company and the boats . Reincarnate Betty Blake

- Having experienced boat people (see above) would help this one to happen. Would eliminate concepts like serving salmon on the Mississippi and having Mardi Gras on the Columbia.

9. Focus on only the more profitable Ports Of Call .

- WHAT? No New Madrid? Curses! :O)

10. More competive pricing of cruses with the Cruise Ships .

- OOPS. Seven days on a 180 passenger steamboat with a well trained, well payed crew for $425 per person?

Paul

When you're comparing a riverboat to a cruise ship, you are really trying to compare apples and oranges. A cruise ship can afford to sell rooms at or below cost because what they really want is your wallet. The want to fill the ship up with as many wallets as they can because once they've got you on board they'll find ways to make you open your wallet.
It starts even before you walk aboard..."stop here for your $15.00 welcome aboard portrait". Once aboard they'll do everything they can to sell you the special "sail away" drink in the special souviner glass. And it continues that way for the rest of the trip..the specialty resturants at $20 a person, the spa treatments (if the spa wasn't a high profit area do you think they would dedicate half of one deck to it?), the casino, the wine tastings, the art auctions, the "University at Sea" and then the biggie, the shore excursions...it goes on constantly. You can't even get away from it when you leave the ship. Who do you think owns all those tee shirt shops and jewelry stores in Juneau Alaska? You got it , the cruise lines.
No a river boat can't compete on room price. But at the end of the trip, the river boat cruise probably cost less.

How would I do it?

This is gonna take up some space on the old hard drive!

1). Two boats...seasonally operated at specific points on the river. 4 seasons, 4 itineraries...of course there would be repositioning cruises for each boat as necessary.

2). The boats would be on the design of the EMERALD LADY/BELLE OF CINCINNATI with lower pilothouses/folding stacks and lower overheads. The design of the aforementioned vessels have large areas in the overheads for electrical routing that would not be needed in this kind of operation. with their removal the air clearance of the vessel would drop by about 10'. In addition the lower pilothouse would be made to lower into the superstructure. The goal would be a possible air clearance of 45' max to accomodate high water and possible upper Tennessee, Illinois, and Arkansas River cruises. They would carry approx 200 pax and be diesel powered with functional paddlewheels and back up props. The Props would NOT be the primary propulsion, the wheel would be 80%...props at night and where needed.

3). The Dining Room would double as the entertainment hall (ala DELTA QUEEN). There would be one bar aboard. The dining room would be positioned near the stern of the second deck with floor to ceiling windows around 3 sides (similar to the MISSISSIPPI QUEEN). The bar would located on the Texas Deck forward with 3 sides also glass enclosed. No pool, theatre, or rock climbing walls aboard.

4). Shore Tours...I would have the local visitors bureau develop the shore tours and operate them. They would pay me for each tour I sold to my pax, so I would not lose money on the tours. Consequently, the stops along the routes would be determined by who could provide me the best income/tour for my passengers. The towns would also have to provide water and trash removal if I would consent to stopping there. Unfortunately, I am sure larger towns would not be interested in my stopping because of the charge to them. Smaller towns would open their doors and welcome us. They would realize the income the 200 pax boat could bring.

5). Entertainment: I would have a Cruise Director aboard who played a musical instrument and could provide at least one nightly show. He/she would be allowed to hire a band from an expense account I would provide them. It would be up to them what their program consisted of and who they got with what they have available to them. If they wanted to focus their budget on step on entertainment, that would be their call. The Cruise Director would be in total charge for the first 2 years....after that, I would get my people together and set my perminant plan from what they had tried the first two years. My idea being to try all possible avenues and settle on the best and most affordable plan. Would try and get all available step on lecturers at all possible ports to promote their local region/attractions at no cost to supplement this program.

6). Dining aboard. All meals would be served Buffet Style and the vessel crew would double as the wait staff. Much like the service on the former Riverbarge.

7). More daytime cruising. Most stops would be mid afternoon and departures in evening. Where necessary some stops would be all day...this would be more of an exception than the norm.

8). More staff involvement in the scheduling of events and operations. They are the people who face the customer/pax the most, they have the best feeling and gauge on what they want.

9). Possible 3rd boat after 5 years. The 3rd boat would be a way to combine cruises on the other two, constantly running the breach between the other vessel operations (like Memphis to St Louis when the other boats are running Memphis to NOLA and St. Louis to St. Paul (Summer months). Or perhaps when not available to do this kind of service...would do trips up the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers.

10). Repositioning trips...very popular with cruise ship travelers, these trips would not have all the amendities of a regular cruise (probably no organized shore stops, little step on entertainment, etc...bare bones, if you will), they could offer diversions on other waterways not regularly served if schelue restrictions would allow.

Features required aboard the vessels.....

Must have operational paddlewheel for the historic appeal and propulsion

Must be twin-stacked Mississippi Steamboat design

Must have steam whistle for signaling (air-operation is asssumed here)

Must have proper roof bell for signaling

Must have steam calliope (air-operation is assumed here, too)

Must have open deck space available to all passengers...both covered and open.

Must have a boarding stage for bank landings

So now you have an idea of what has been brewing in my head. So much so, I have drawn ideas of the boats I have in mind, written prospective schedules, and even tried to produce a budget for them. I think it could work! I am not in the position in any way to make this happen...but, if you are and want to talk about it more...let me know! I really believe in my plan here and if anyone sees any flaws in what I have told you about here...let me know. Someday I hope to get this idea running or give it to someone who can...cause frankly, I miss overnight river trips!

Travis

I forgot one thing...The office and operations. I would put mine here in Louisville...not because it is home...but there is a shipyard with a drydock right across the river. Good service with access to the operator. We generally don't freeze up here too much (although it is just 19 degrees as this is witten!) There are many places to lay up with safe landings near the downtown area. Louisville is offering practically free rent for any new business that locates here...so why not?

The season I would propose is Mardi Gras - New Years. The last cruise of the season would be from New Orleans to Louisville for repositioning and lay up...limited stops, bare bones...and New Years all in one cruise! One boat would lay up after the fall season, the other operate till New Years. Both would come out simultansously for all the Spring activities on the river (Natchez Pagent, Kentucky Derby, etc.).

Jim: Lessee how that might work: a coin slot on the banjo player, another on the calliope player, $$ for an engine room tour, $$$ for a pilot house tour, $50 a toot to blow the whistle, Fifty bux for a seat at the Captain's table, $50 for a kite (twenny dollars more if you want string; $15 for a winder!). Twenny bux for some screw-lid whine with dinner and so on...We could buy Rabbit Hash and stock the General Store. With the profits, we could buy Madison and do the same thing and then we could offer tours of the ship-yards at both places! Then lessee...ten bux for a chair at dinner and five more for a deck chair. Fiddy sense for ear plugs if you don't wanna hear the caliope; a dollar in the Texas lounge (the banjo's there). Gee whizz, the money seems limitless! I mean, if I offered to sing... Cap'n Walnut.

Tom Schiffer;19885 wrote: Jim: I mean, if I offered to sing... Cap'n Walnut.

DEALBREAKER!

You had me up 'till then, Cappy.

:O)

Paul

I'm still cogitating, but a few thoughts; If not steam powered, must at least be a pitman powered wheel! I know steam is not familiar to many folks, but with modern boilers and efficient design, I would think the long-life span of well-built steam engines would balance out in time. Then you have steam for the whistle & calliope, and the steam tables too (as well as heating system--I see some savings in multiple uses of the steam.
Bare-bones transition cruises--now there's an idea!! Two types of cruises, full deluxe, and FRN cruises! At least for the "deadhead" moves. That might have a lot of merit!
One thing, must break the mold of the customer comparing river trip to ocean cruise--the only thing they share is you are on a vessel floating on water--everything else is completely different!
Well, I'm gonna do more thinkin' before I post my complete foolishness here! Meantime, I'm gleaning ideas!
S'
David D.

Here's what I'd do: hire Captain Al Bernstein! I was honored to work for him on his Cincy to Pittsburgh Belle of Cincinnati trip last fall, and was very impressed at how he runs his operation. I don't know how he does it, but his crew was fabulous. The food was prepared by one chef, with minimal help by a crew member who also served, cleaned, washed dishes and decked. That's part of the solution: everyone does multiple jobs. Captain Al's small crew did, and I never heard one complaint from them--they were cheerful and worked hard, as well as provided suburb service (now, where does he get them??). Consequently, I never heard a complaint from his passengers, either. Is the coffee drugged? Nah--just great service, from a great operation.
The other key here is marketing. NOBODY has done this right. Let me at it!!

Got That Right

You got that right, Steamboat Mary. Cap'n Al runs his boat operation as he learned it from his early days on the DELTA QUEEN when that's the way things were done. None of that, "It's not my job" attitude. It's a joy to be a part of such a crew, and an honor, as you said, to work for a manager like Captain B. who is an authentic steamboatm'n and riverman.

To answer your question, "where does he get" such a crew? He gets them 'off the bank' like everyone else does, but it's what he does with them once they are aboard. Al trains them in his own way, and I am convinced, though I have not worked for him, that he separates the wheat from the chaff,, and those who are not motivated to become a contributing member of the crew would be free to go elsewhere. But there are those who want to participate, and when you get a group of like-members together, you can have a great crew and the ingredients for the style of service you described. But that's my take, as that is what I do when I have the freedom to chose my own people. My 1976-77 PA DENNY crew was such a rare combination, and everyone on deck eventually became the Captain of the boat in turn.

Combining the leadership of an Alan Bernstein and some of the concepts of Travis and others, along with the proper boat, as described by John Fryant, all that is needed is deep pockets with sufficient capital to bankroll the operation, and how that is done is, as Chief Benefiel used to say, "a different category."

How would I do it? I'd be tighter than Dick's hatband, which as everybody knows, was so tight it busted the buttons off his vest. That is the secret to running any business. Don't spend money on anything that will not bring a return.

Mary,

You are right about Capt. Bernstein...he runs a tight boat and his employees love him. Much like what DQSCo USED to be before Delaware North and Ambassadors pummeled them into the dark ages! Doing multiple tasks is something I am surprized alot of these diesel excursion boat operators have not taken advantage of. You can have a deckhand as a server and still run legal! I was aboard the BELLE OF CINCINNATI for the 3rd of July cruise to Coney and I can't say enough about the service aboard the boat. We were seated and kept up to speed on everything as it happened. My only complaint was dinner being served at departure. There was really no way to get on deck to see the boat off.

One of the reasons I had the crew in multiple positions in my business plan was to save money (they are already there so why not use them?). If a person has too much down time, their mind wanders, and trouble ensues.
I loved the position of Riverlorian aboard the boats...it kept me busy almost 18 hours a day. I was on the floor at 7:30am (DQ and AQ or 6:45 MQ) and ran till Lunch...then back on the floor till 5pm. Usually I was back on the floor about 6:30 after dinner till about 9 or 10pm...then off to study/plan the next day, do laundry, or head off to bed and back up and at 'em! And the variety of the job was so much fun. There were always activities to host (Pilothouse tours, historic vessel tours, movies, lectures, other vessel functions), passengers who wanted a book or binoculars, questions to answer/research...and if that didn't keep you busy, there was always other crew to assist, calliope to play, Cruise Director to help, or a friendly repeater to bend your ear!

Most work I ever enjoyed in my life!

My point being....keep them busy and they will enjoy the time aboard. If they don't, chances are they aren't river material after all!

I have never done a multi-day trip on a BB Riverboat...but I can imagine it would be fun. I have done all day (Cinti-Rabbit Hash-Cinti) and dinner cruises aboard....so I have a feel for how they'd do it. I bet the pax loved it!

Yeah, if someone does another overnight boat, the key is pricing and keeping the costs down. Get the most for every buck you can and you will be a success! Oh, and sell the hell out of liquor...there is mega profit in that stuff!

Travis

Thank YOU one and all !!

First of all , Thank YOU one and all for contributing to this thread and I appreciate your thoughts and ideas .
Secondly , a few other actions that I would implement if I was the CEO of a modern day steamboat company and for that matter NOT necessairly of the Delta Queen Steamboat company are as follows :

1. Spend more time in the more popular and profitable " Ports Of Call " , thus allowing the passengers to have more time to take advantage of the points of interest that the respective river town have to offer and also thus saving on fuel and water expenses as well .
2. Offer the repeat passengers a greater and more substantial discount on their future fares .
3. Offer the opportunity to some passengers to not stay overnight on the boat but to have the option at least to spend their nights shore side and then to bus them to the boat at their discretion .
4. Offer up more raffel type trips on the boats inorder to generate greater interest and excitement to the general public about steamboating on America's rivers .
5. Offer more trips that have certain VIP's on board to also futher generate more interest in riding the boats .

These are just a few more thoughts and ideas that I would adress and possibly implement to generate both interest and sales .

Ted Davisson;19853 wrote: Greetings From New Orleanbs !
When you take into account the make up of the people that both read and post on this web page concerning steamboating , there is an absolute wealth of personal and second hand experience of what should and should not be done to successfully run and operat a steamboat company . Think fo it , there are both retired and still working Coast Guard licensed deck and engineering officiers , there are the frequent " flyer " passengers , there is of course the Buffs and Buffets ( Thank You Capt. Ware ) and if the truth was known I would also imagine that there were a few ex-management steamboat or even cruise line people whom have had to deal with all the unique situations that occur on the Mississippi River system .
For the most part , most of us that have followed the demise of the Delta Queen Steamboat Company have a pretty good idea of what happened , of what worked and of what did not work !
So , here is your chance folks to be the CEO of a steamboat company , and to implement all the rules and regulations that YOU believe are necessary to operate a modern day Mississippi River steamboat company .
Here are a few of mine .
1. Operate two boats , one on the upper rivers and one on the lower rivers .
2. One centrally located home office ( possibly Memphis ) .
3. Experienced " Boat People " that are now in charge in the home office .
4. Better treatment and training of ALL boat personel including pay and chance of advancement .
5. A shorter operating season .
6. Better variety and scope of on board entertainment , possibly an on board casino or more non traditional river related song and dance routines .
7. Fewer employees in the home office .
8. Better marketing of the company and the boats . Reincarnate Betty Blake
9. Focus on only the more profitable Ports Of Call .
10. More competive pricing of cruses with the Cruise Ships .

These are just a few of the things that I would do and or at least consider inorder to successfully run and operate a modern day Western River steamboat company . Now , what would YOU do or for that matter not do ??
Smooth Sailing !
Ted Davisson

One Last Key Ingrediant

Greetings From New Orleans !
First of all , I would like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread with their thoughts and ideas on what it would to take to run a successful steamboat in this current economic climate . I also think that everyone's thoughts and ideas had merit and could be debated endlessly and the only true way to see if these ideas would work of course would be to put them into a practical application but of course that would be both impractical and unlikely . The only idea that I have not seen presented and I feel that from personal experience from working on the boats , is the concerpt that the entire crew and office personel MUST CARE and have a personal interest in seeing the boat and company succeede ! When I was working the boats , regardless of my position I noticed that everyone from the bus boys to the Captain & Pilots had a genuine interest in seeing the boat and company succeede and that they for the most part loved their work and being a part of this operation . Over the years I have come boack to the boats as a Trip Pilot and that was one of the things that I noticed and saw lacking ! Unfortunately , there was a lack of careing for the boat and much less for the company . Now how do you remedy this issue ? My thoughts on this matter is to No. 1 - Offer stock options , No. 2 - Promote from within and No.3 - the company must show their appreciation for their employees at every opportunity . These are my thoughts and what are yours ??
Smooth Sailing !
Ted Davisson

Ted Davisson;19853 wrote: Greetings From New Orleanbs !
When you take into account the make up of the people that both read and post on this web page concerning steamboating , there is an absolute wealth of personal and second hand experience of what should and should not be done to successfully run and operat a steamboat company . Think fo it , there are both retired and still working Coast Guard licensed deck and engineering officiers , there are the frequent " flyer " passengers , there is of course the Buffs and Buffets ( Thank You Capt. Ware ) and if the truth was known I would also imagine that there were a few ex-management steamboat or even cruise line people whom have had to deal with all the unique situations that occur on the Mississippi River system .
For the most part , most of us that have followed the demise of the Delta Queen Steamboat Company have a pretty good idea of what happened , of what worked and of what did not work !
So , here is your chance folks to be the CEO of a steamboat company , and to implement all the rules and regulations that YOU believe are necessary to operate a modern day Mississippi River steamboat company .
Here are a few of mine .
1. Operate two boats , one on the upper rivers and one on the lower rivers .
2. One centrally located home office ( possibly Memphis ) .
3. Experienced " Boat People " that are now in charge in the home office .
4. Better treatment and training of ALL boat personel including pay and chance of advancement .
5. A shorter operating season .
6. Better variety and scope of on board entertainment , possibly an on board casino or more non traditional river related song and dance routines .
7. Fewer employees in the home office .
8. Better marketing of the company and the boats . Reincarnate Betty Blake
9. Focus on only the more profitable Ports Of Call .
10. More competive pricing of cruses with the Cruise Ships .

These are just a few of the things that I would do and or at least consider inorder to successfully run and operate a modern day Western River steamboat company . Now , what would YOU do or for that matter not do ??
Smooth Sailing !
Ted Davisson