*XANTERRA buys SEABOURN cruise ships*

People have been asking me about my thoughts on the Carnival TRIUMPH disaster. I have responded that if it were an American-flag vessel, I felt as if there would be more in the way of back-up generators, etc. Of course we all complain about the USCG and also complain about the prices of cruises on U.S. flagged vessels, but in spite of all that, I really do think I would rather have been on a U.S. flagged vessel in that situation.

*TRIUMPH/Systems/USCG Regs*
Steamboating colleagues:
First, my above posting was in no way intended to cast a dark light on an even darker situation we witnessed last week. We received news at sea on our ship with passengers ogling TVs, talking over dinner etc. With the vast fleets of cruise/passenger ship/vessels operating today, something is bound to happen somewhere, sometime.

Bob, with your current 'hands on' experience, you would know first hand. No doubt our USCG is stringent with many high standards and demands; yet also are other Coast Guards and regulatory agencies in other nations--many just as tough as our USCG.

Years back, aboard a P&O ship in the Pacific, we experienced a similar power failure with all coming to a halt, emergency lights on. The ship drifted most of the day in silence as the engineers 'jump started' the generators. I walked to the ship's stern, looked over seeing a huge 'brown plume' when the sanitary tanks were pumped out. The waste water, garbage had been processed for allowed dumping. Years back the now retired liner QE-2 came to a dead halt in the Atlantic for want of a fuel fixture costing about $55. Ships/boats are huge inter-related systems with one relying upon the other to operate. Something goes wrong with one, and all comes to a stop like a house of playing cards.

I've also seen/been involved in a ship-board fire at sea and it was no fun. The fire was quelled in an hour or two. Boats were swung out ready to abandon ship. I had chills seeing the sea rising, falling along the sides wondering how all the passengers--many of advanced age--could be loaded into the rescue craft.

Present passenger ships built in a new kind of davit to swing survival craft out unlike the older 'Wellan Davit' type. No ship listing too many degress can swing their boats out fully as we saw last year on the COSTA CONCORDIA. I've been lowered in survival craft 65 feet to the water below and there's no experience like it. Such survival craft today are fully motorized with water, food, supplies and a capacity each, give or take, of some 150 'souls.' Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

I, too, have cruised on non-U.S. flagged ships and never felt unsafe, but then I have never been in a situation such as you mention. On the vessels with which I am familiar, backup generators capable of carrying a full load are ready and serviced to be put online at a moments' notice, and are in a separate area from the other genset(s). Whether this is just good practice/seamanship or due to regs I do not know, but I suspect even in the U.S. only an emergency generator, capable of carrying a reduced load, is required. However, it would take a very major emergency for that scenario to come into play, since all vessels I am familiar with have at least two full gensets, and in the case of the DQ, another emergency set to handle a reduced load. Even on the DQ when I worked on there, the original steam generator was used primarily for the "house" air conditioning, and could of course be used for any other load (in addition to the "emergency" would carry).

I know also that even on uninspected towing vessels in the U.S., two full gensets are carried and ready at all times. If there is something wrong with one of the installed generators, a "spare" is aboard, usually sitting on deck, and wired up to the vessel's electrical system, ready to go online at any time. I would not depart on a trip without such backup. We would delay or interrupt a trip to get the necessary equipment aboard and set up, if needed.

*Vessel systems/Crew drills etc.*
Steamboating colleagues:
Thanks, Bob, for your more in-depth data gleaned from your position and experience. Never in all my years on ocean passenger ships has there been a neglect in holding a full-ship 'drill' with life jackets at muster stations even before the ship cast lines to steam out. Passengers are serious and attentive during the drills with no mumbling, laughing, talking. Those reporting to muster stations with drinks in hand are reminded to "put all beverages aside and listen carefully." On the old QUEEN MARY/QUEEN ELIZABETH drills aboard in New York harbor were strict. Men and older male youths stood with back to the deck bulkheads; women and younger children in front with 'toes on the line' as the CUNARD LINE officers/crew called off cabin names and numbers on a muster sheet. This signaled by seven short blasts followed by a long blast on the ship's whistle [Siren] system. The family and I never fail to read the notice of our station on the back of the stateroom door. The ship's inner TV system repeatedly airs notice with sign language for the hearing impaired. There wasn't a day over the last two weeks that the crew weren't mustered for drills including 'man overboard' etc. Orders are to fetch life jackets, warm clothing, hat, necessary medications in reporting to said stations. Life vests, as you all know, fitted with whistles, reflector panels, lights that flash on when contact with fresh/salt water is made. Several ship captains/officers I talked with said, "I NEVER even so much as take one drink of wine, beer or cocktails during my rotation aboard in case something happens." Most upper ranking officers don't even eat in the ship's dining room; rather eating on bridge duty or in their private quarters.

When you take one big step from dry land onto a ship, the whole world changes as to who is boss, who is in control and what is expected under different laws. I noted the ages of passengers from babies/young children on up to advanced senior citizens. Many older passengers with canes, walkers and mobies to get around. Crew members are assigned older or impaired passengers with life jackets fitted for babies and young children. Again, I thought of the old hymn, "Those in peril on the deep." Still today passengers are listed on the manifest as 'souls.' This an ancient term going back centuries. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

My ONE and only blue water cruise

I obviously had a much different experience when I took the Panamanian-flagged (flag of convenience) BERMUDA STAR on a 7 day cruise out of NOLA in 1987. We had the mandatory fire/boat drill just after we rounded Algiers Bend, fine and dandy... I had read my safety card in my room and knew that I was to report to station 13 on the starboard side. This I did, or tried to do, when the alarm sounded. Only problem was: 13 was on the PORT side. It was obvious that many placards had been misprinted, as at least 100 pax were wandering about, looking for their station. We couldn't get much help from the crew, almost none of which spoke English to any degree of fluency. That put me on alert the rest of the trip, but luckily there was no need for emergency action. The seas were rough enough that they didn't have water in the pool until the last day, but no one ever explained that, in fact announcements of any sort were non-existent throughout the cruise. One of my late evening activities was to stand on an overhanging balcony watching the plastic garbage bags being plopped into the water - it was probably late enough that they assumed no passengers would still be out and about. I had such a 'great' time that the next weekend I paid to ride the MQ - something I had vowed I would never do! I'm glad you enjoy the blue water Dale, but the river is the only life for me!

Hi, Judy:
Good memories you have of the BERMUDA STAR. Again, the ocean isn't everybody's cup of tea. I agree the best scenery for sure is from the decks of a steamboat. The Rhine, Danube, Dnieppr, Volga also have their charms. The 'lauguage' factor on ships has caused problems in the past with announcements. This caused really BIG problems when the ANDREA DORIA was sinking back in 1956 with garbled PA announcements. 'Flags of convenience' are many: Bermudan, Bahamas, Barbados, and the registries seem to change periodically. Those plastic garbage bags being plopped in the ocean now long outlawed. Years back, on the old QUEEN ELIZABETH, I was also treated to the same view seeing the companionway doors below opened with crew shoving garbage, bottles etc. out from the side with long poles. How times have changed. Years back even junk was dumped from the DQ into the river. That ended quickly and earlier than on the oceans. Even smoke emissions now under strict surveilance. I've never had the experience of a New Orleans departure by ship down to the mouth of the Mississippi. Cheers! Missed you posting of late.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Xanterra buys Seabourn cruise ships

Hmm, after watching those poor people float around the ocean on the Carnival Triumph, I think I'll just save my pocket change, and nag my better half for a cruise for Xmas on the American Queen. I want to be able to see land on the port & starbord side, thank you very much, and no body spelling out "Help " on the deck.
Loved my cruises on Royal Carribean, but not feeling lucky any more.....@56 years old.

Allow me to share some thoughts from an international perspective ...

When it comes to ocean-going passenger vessels all regulations are international agreements (like our Delta Queen killing "favorite" SOLAS) applicable to all vessels, independently from which flag they're flying. So, on an American flagged vessel you won't have more generators or any other technical equipment than on a cruise ship with Bermuda, Bahamas, Malta or Panama flag (besides the fact that space is very limited even on he biggest cruise ships, so there probably isn't evenan option to have additional generators, in addition to the existing backup systems).

You don't even have much of a difference with the inspections of the ships as there is the so called "port state control" (Welcome to Paris MoU on PSC) which especially covers Europe and North America, allowing the authorities of any port the ships calls at to perform inspections and - in worst case - even put a ship under arrest if it doesn't comply to the regulations.

If you have the time, just check the cruise critic message boards about the Pride of America, the only large cruise ship sailing under US flag and see what passengers think about the service and the quality of the (almost all American) crew on this ship. To make it short: They're not enthusiastic at all ...

Besides all that, the modern, large cruise ships won't be able to run under US flag from a costs perspective. Or in other words: Only a small fraction of today's passengers would be able to afford a cruise under these conditions.

A bit unrelated but interesting to mention anyway as ot helps to understand the cost side of all this: I just two days ago talked to a captain of a smaller, German luxurious cruise line about them not offering cruises to the Great Lakes anymore. Simply put: Even a luxurious cruise line can't afford the high lockage and docking feed ans all the extremely high cost involved in calling ports in the US. They've not put this route on their schedule anymore because they simply can't make any money there at all ... And these are ships flying the Bahamas flag with partially German (service departments), partially international crew and where the passengers are being charged not under $4.000 per week.

Just a few thoughts from outside the US about this topic 😉

Thank you, Franz. I knew all that about the costs involved with "all American" and knew it was prohibitive. I also agree that international crews are often much nicer than American crews.

I still don't understand about the backup equipment, though. That's one reason I don't care for the new ships, I guess. They're too dadgum big.

*Great Lakes cruises*
Hi, Franz & steamboating colleagues:
Interesting points above. For several summers I saw a few of the smaller, luxurious cruise ships come in on Lake Michigan, dock or tender passengers ashore near our summer home. The German ship I 'think' you mention was one along with another French vessel. Port costs are escalating not only here but in foreign ports. PRINCESS CRUISES, and other lines, now are permitted to sail out of a U.S. port [New York is one] to foreign ports and return as was not the case until the Jones Act was amended. I also understand the frustration, angst over the plight of the DQ under SOLAS as shared on this forum. Again, what's your alternative answer? The law is the law. And don't even think of making another phone call or a letter to the USCG or a congressional representative for the DQ as it 'ain't gonna' happen on their parts. Tough talk and reality in one. As for the increasing costs on what U.S. flagged vessels there are began to be felt some years back. In debth studies by members of our U.S. Congress as early as the 1920s and 1930s warned of "the eventual death of the U.S. Merchant Marine." In my early years DQ prices were, by comparison now, to be rediculously to ludicrously low.

The recently lamented CARNIVAL scenario at sea will engender a now six month investigation. Don't be too sure about "back-up" and other equipment being required for both foreign and U.S. flagged vessels not being studied, recommended. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Well, it's of course all a question of money, as always. Put some backup equipment on these big ships (the smaller ones do have even less space for this) and you'll have to sacrifice some passenger cabins for that and in addition you raise the weight, hence increase the fuel consumption which accounts for up to half of the overall cost.

The advantage of very new ships at least is that cruise ships built after 2010 are required to have to completely separate engine rooms and engine control rooms so in theory you'll have one half of the engines still operational when one of the two engine rooms and/or engine control rooms fail/burn/flood.

After all, it's like everything in life: It's a question of balancing benefits and risks. Of course, cruise lines want to make as much much money as possible and hence accept higher risks (limited by the relatively strict international regulations), passengers want to have as much safety as possible, but at the same time most of them are not willing to pay for it ... Instead the sue the cruise line after something happens while having happy accepted the fact that there must be something wrong when you book a 7-night-cruise für just $299 ...

Third World Cruising

My first question, and I always have many questions when these incidents occur, is why they couldn't extinguish the fire immediately and continue on. I understand it was a fuel line leak, which sounds pretty minor compared to what other kinds of fires can occur in engine rooms. I also understand that there were problems beforehand and deficiencies pointed out but not remedied.

Here's what the scenario could have been and boy were they lucky. They could have been on the Gulf of Mexico in the summer. Talk about unbearable. On top of that, the Gulf was very calm. What if the Gulf had been acting up, as it ever so frequently does without any help from, God forbid, a hurricane?

I don't care for those big things either, Bob.

To my understanding, the engine room was closed off and the automatic fire extinguishing system killed the fire but it was so hot inside they had to let it cool down for quite a while until they could enter the engine room again. That's all information that has been released about the incident so far.

*Ship systems/Get what you pay for*
Steamboating colleagues:
Franz, I couldn't agree with you more. The CARNIVAL ship in question was built in 1999--prior to ensuing requirements for back-up systems. Sure, it costs money and there's no doubt about that. Added equipment would add overall tonnage weight, but be low in the hull meeting the required stability factors and calculations. Our late Alan Bates wrote, commented on this more than once.

When you book said cruise for just $299 it begs the reply that, "You get what you pay for." Ocean vessels again not everybody's cup of tea--and that's understandable. I neither play golf or ski; yet I respect those who like those activities. The scenery factor can be answered with incredible views of Alaskan glaciers, Norwegian and South American fjords, sailing into Istanbul or the main canal in Venice, Rio in Brazil, port of Sydney. We tend, as steamboat lovers, to be skewed in our love of the rivers and said boats. Yet, I've talked with more than a few people who have openly said, "You wouldn't get me on one of these river boats for love or money." Or, "We took one river cruise and that was enough." All depends on the flip of the coin. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River.

I have debated over commenting for a week now, I hope that I have worded this is a positive matter, as I consider all of you my fellow steamboat friends!

I feel as though the price of what a pax pays can't be tied to the safety of the vessel. The changes in price is going to be based majorly on the service, amenities, and how the ship is fitted out on the hotel side, not the safety of the deck or engine department. Also, a burst fuel line, is probably one of the most dangerous fires that can occur in a modern day engine room; being that within minutes, hundreds of gallons of heated oil is being sprayed at high pressure in an enclosed space surrounded by hot surfaces.

On the note of being "safer" if it had been American flagged, over the past few years, I've talked to several of the inspectors of a major classification society that inspects both the major American flagged and foreign passenger vessels, and it's the opposite of what we want to think...

So how do I comment when asked specifically about the incident and who is at fault, I don't, it is our duty as the professional mariner to wait for the facts, and that no matter what, safety always overrides comfort.

The whole thing sounds too familiar. In Nov. of 2010 the Carnival Splendor, off the west coast of Mexico had the same thing happen: engine room fire, and loss of power. From my recollection, the fire disabled one of six generators, and the main distribution panel. So, even though the other five generators could operate, there was no way to get around the main panel and get power anywhere else in the ship. It took four days to get towed here (San Diego). Carnival had food delivered to North Island Naval Air Station here; Navy planes flew the food to one of our carriers (USS Ronald Reagan, if I remember correctly), where Navy helicopters took the food to the Splendor. A friend of mine on the carrier said that that loss of power thing wouldn't happen on a navy ship because of all the redundancy they have. But if you installed all that on a cruise ship, you'd have the passengers in sleeping arrangements like the Navy crews have - cramped!

Jim Baker;31349 wrote: A friend of mine on the carrier said that that loss of power thing wouldn't happen on a navy ship because of all the redundancy they have. But if you installed all that on a cruise ship, you'd have the passengers in sleeping arrangements like the Navy crews have - cramped!

Very true Jim, look at the new USS Independence, which is only 380ft, with a crew of 40, and it costed over 700 million, nearly double the price of the ship you mention.

*Good & "positive words*
Hi, Matt,
You certainly did post in a "positive manner." This forum based with give and take, point and counterpoint. Thanks for your insights, thinking based in experience. A legal link yesterday relates that the big legal guns in the recent CARNIVAL case are lining up being packed with dry powder. Yet, 3rd party legal commentators believe the many litigants being represented won't get all that much. CARNIVAL has duly given all a $500 credit. First legal statement is, "Passengers may well not receive much in that there had been no deaths, injuury or illness stemming from the incident." "Inconvenience" and said "discomfort" are relative terms in many legal cases where travel or resorts are concerned. What's the old wag? "I may not be able to define it, but I know what it is when I see it." Admiralty Law, as you know, an entirely different world.

Unfortunately, history of the cruise industry some years back did reveal that 'some' lines relegated the 'cut rate cruises' aboard their somewhat older, down-the-line vessels. It's a fact and I've seen it. Sounds like this case will take a good six months to resolve, possibly.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

R. Dale Flick;31351 wrote:

Unfortunately, history of the cruise industry some years back did reveal that 'some' lines relegated the 'cut rate cruises' aboard their somewhat older, down-the-line vessels. It's a fact and I've seen it. Sounds like this case will take a good six months to resolve, possibly.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

Hey Dale,

Thanks for the feedback, and yes I know exactly what you mean, the first thing that came to mind when I originally wrote the post was the S.S. Norway's final years.

Unrelated, besides being aboard the Norway...

I worked under a Captain who was a 3rd Mate aboard her back in her prime. He told me a story of when he was sitting with all the Engineers one evening they kept referring to an Engineer (who wasn't sitting with them) as the new guy, the young and fresh 3rd Mate thought to search him out to befriend him so that they can work off each other as a team between departments, both being new and all. Come to find out after talking to the "New Guy" that he had been on the Norway for 8 years, held a Chief Steam Engineer license, and the same age as the rest of the Engineers, but was last of the old time steam Engineers to join the ship. Needless to say the gap between the ER and the Bridge wasn't narrowed down!

*Cruise ships are vast hotels*
Him Matt & Steamboating colleagues:
Thanks, Matt, for your insights/experience above. I had NO IDEA you had been posted on the SS NORWAY [Former SS FRANCE of he old FRENCH LINE]. She was one remarkable ship for sure. I had a 'walk about' tour aboard here in New York ages ago when she was the FRANCE. The FRANCE was designed/constructed in nearly the same vein as the former great NORMANDIE. My late father was in the U.S. Navy slated for a billet on the NORMANDIE after her conversion to a troop carrier in W.W. II. The disastrous fire aboard her at the pier on the Hudson River ended that pronto with my dad not being hailed in as a witness for the investigation.

A clever wag one wrote about the great French and British liners on the Atlantic. The British built a ship; then put a hotel inside. The French built a hotel and then wrapped a ship around it." Cheers!

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.