Boilers

I believe the forward-facing furnaces were intended to take advantage of the forced draft that would occur naturally as the boat came ahead. I can't recall seeing a river steamer fired from the aft end....to which boats do you refer?

As I said, please forgive my ignorance. I had some photos in mind when I posted, but now can't find which ones I was remembering. The Graceful Ghost is aft fired, and for some reason I had it in my mind that the Julia Belle Swain might be.

The use of blowers to produce an artificial draft may have had something to do with it. I was amazed to find blowers referred to in an 1845 article about steamboat boilers.

Too, the gradual replacement of return flue boilers with other, more efficient types might have had an effect on the placement of the firebox. Don't modern boilers utilize a design known the water tube boiler? I'm way out of my field here and would like to hear from an expert.

There are two basic boiler types among the hundreds of ideas and variations: these are the fire-tube boilers, in which the hot gases flow through tubes or flues surrounded by water; and the water-tube boilers, in which the hot gases surround tubes full of water. The fire-tube boilers store more energy in the hot water, while the water-tube boilers absorb the heat more efficiently. A boat with fire-tube boilers can run for miles with no fire. On a boat with water-tube boilers when the fire goes out or a feedwater pump fails there is very little power stored, and they'd better choke a willow right now! As a general rule fire-tube boilers are heavier and less efficient.
Now that you know all this, there are hundreds of exceptions to these dicta.
The primary reason that steam boats, locomotives, cranes and road rollers were replaced by diesels and gasoline was the boiler(s). No other element of the steam power system absorbs more care, cost, maintenance or repairs than the boiler.

I am confused about the differences between return flue and tubular boilers?

A railroad steam locomotive boiler is pierced by numerous tubes that carry the hot gasses from the firebox at one end of the boiler to the smokebox at the other. Some of the heat transfer occurs through the tubes, but most of it takes place directly above the firebox, through the crown sheet. This, I assume, is termed a tubular boiler because of its numerous tubes.

By contrast, aren't return flue boilers heated along the entire length of their underside? The hot gasses travel the full length of the boiler's underside and then return to the front of the boiler via 2 or more flues that run through the boiler's interior. The flues also transfer heat into the water, though not too efficiently I assume.

The breechings to the chimneys are at the forward end of return flue boilers. Would they be at the aft end of a tubular boiler, since there is no return of the heat through the tubes?

The common western rivers boiler had two or more flues. The flames and hot gases passed under, and in contact with, the boiler shell, then returned through the flues. Some had tubes instead of flues, some had both, but the heat was inside the tubes or flues. This is a fire-tube boiler. The locomotive boiler heats through the firebox walls and top and through flues or tubes to the stack end. This is a firetube boiler. Regardless of the number of passes of the hot gases (and they can be four or more) if the heat source is INSIDE the tubes it is a fire-tube boiler. A water-tube boiler has the water INSIDE the tubes and is usually arranged with a lower tank and a series of tubes containing water , which is converted to steam as it rises to an upper receiving tank. The water is inside the tubes, which makes it a water-tube boiler. The rule in the terms fire-tube and water-tube refer to what is INSIDE the tubes.

A variant of these is the scotch marine boiler. The furnace is contained within the boiler and the hot gases flow away from it through the tubes and/or flues. This, too, is a fire-tube boiler because the inside of the tubes/flues is full of hot gases.
The scotch marine furnace is a circular 'barrel'. The flame bed is about a third of the way above the bottom of the furnace and the ashes fall into the lower third. There is water against the inner end of the and all around the shell of the furnace. The outer end of the furnace, or 'barrel,' has the firing and ashpit doors. The inner end is pierced for the tubes and flues.

Captain Bates,

Way's Steamboat Directory lists at least one steamboat with a locomotive boiler--YOUNG EAGLE. Would the breachings to the chimneys have been at the aft end of the boiler (assuming it was fired from the front)?

Way also makes several references to "tubular" boilers. How were these different from return flue boilers? Was it merely that tubular boilers had more tubes running through the boiler as opposed to a return flue type? Both types, as you have explained, were fire tube boilers. But did the fire on tubular boilers heat the underside of the boiler from fore to aft and then pass forward through the tubes? Or did the heat pass through the tubes only, and not along the underside of the boiler shell?

The difference between tubes and flues is size and construction. In general (with more exceptions than we have time for) flues are larger than tubes. Flues were usually fabricated and tupes were pipes. Yes, there were more tubes than flues in a given space. If the fire-tube boiler was two-pass, the flames and gases went from the furnace to the space under the boilers, then into the flues or tubes to return to the firing end. At the risk of tooting my own horn, I suggest that you contact the Howard Museum at [email protected] and buy a copy of the Western Rivers Engineroom Cyclopoedium. Their address is 1101 Marlet Street, Jeffersonville, IN 47130. Their telephone number is (812) 283-3728. This book will show the various types of boilers used on steamboats.
I do not know how the boiler was arranged on the YOUNG EAGLE.
Most modern steam locomotive boilers had both flues and tubes. The superheater tubes were inside the flues.

Thanks for the information; it's very helpful.

Getting back to the original question in this thread, would there have been any boilers that were fired from the aft end, and were there any with chimney breechings at the aft end?

Yes, several boats had the boilers arranged to fire from the rear. Everything has been tried at one time or another./U]

I believe that the slow adoption of fans on steamers related to putting a fan in the flue gas stream which was quite hot...witness the sparks and even fire sometimes and parhaps falsely shown in lilustrations, eminating from stack tops...usually of a racing steamer. There are several ways to induce draft through a firebox/boiler to enhance combustion. One is with TALL stacks, which caused problems with early bridges. Another is that a draft is induced by the air flow over the tops of the stacks. I would speculate that some of the fancy work placed there defeated that feature. Another way was/is to put the exhaust nozzle in the stack/s pointed toward the top. The velocity of the escaping steam will drag quite a bit of flue gas along with it...enhancing draft. Nearly all steam locomotives used this trick. However, steamers which condense their steam for reuse and horsepower enhancement have a more economical use for the steam than blowing it up the stack. There are fans of two kinds, induced draft (ID Fan) in the gas stream and forced draft (FD Fan) which blows air into the firebox. The ID fan must live in the hot flue gas stream and while the advantages were early known, the proper materials of construction were not known or were not availbale or too expensive...so, why not use the FD fan only? The answer is simple...with the firebox under positive pressure from the FD fan, the first fireman who opens a fire door will be greeted by tongue of flame that is likely to chase him too far away to even close the door! It appeared to me that modern steamers like the Jason with her short stacks may have had fans but she likely burned oil in a closed firebox. No doubt that packets did have forward facing fire doors to enhance draft when the doors were open...blowing cool air in past the fireman. Steambats were not very sophisticated...that silver water cooler was up in the fancy cabin, not down on the main deck and it dispensed river water, not lemonade! Labor and fuel were relatively cheap and they did what they did to make money back then...not impress generations yet unborn. With wood hulls, they knew that in five or so years they would have to have a new one anyway.

Hank, Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you thought the Julia Belle Swain might be aft fired. 'Taint so, she has a completely automatic flash steam boiler down in the hull. It is a tiny little thing, oil fired, and can produce a full head of steam from cold in three minutes. Directly behind this boiler is a big six cylinder diesel that produces all electricity for the boat, including that needed to run the burner which is under the boiler. The great advantage of that arrangement is that the steam plant can be shut down when the boat is tied up resulting in much fuel savings. Dennis Trone did some ingenious things when he designed that boat. Now that I've said all this I must tell you that thats the way the JBS was set up in 1977. I trust she still has the same arrangemnet.

Just to confuse things still further I offer this. The B&O RR had a number of locomotives with water tube fireboxes and firetube boilers. The Pennsylvania Railroad had one. The D&H RR had at least four of them. The Baldwin Locomotive Works built a huge demonstrator that had this feature. It is on display in the Franklin Institute Museum.
And the Santa Fe had several locomotives with HINGED BOILERS! As I said, everything has been tried at one time or another.

Tom Schiffer;3689 wrote: No doubt that packets did have forward facing fire doors to enhance draft when the doors were open...blowing cool air in past the fireman.

The rush of air into the firebox door was in excess of 40 miles per hour on a typical nineteenth century steamer with tall chimneys. That certainly fanned the shirt of the fireman, if he was wearing a shirt.

The majority of small modern steam launches also have water tube boilers. They are a bit easier for the amateur builder to fabricate, and can be quite efficient. My old boat, the Mikahala, would have just a warm stack when fired well. Some of the other boaters thought I didn't have a good fire, but no, the boiler was 'eating' all the heat. Without a large steam drum, though, they don't have any "reserve" steam, as a fire tube does by it's very nature.
Steamcerely,
David D.

You can learn something every time you read this board! I had no idea that there were flash boilers that large. Are there other boats with this setup?

Hank,
The JBS is the only steamboat I know of with such a setup. And that flash boiler isn't big. I forget the dimensions, as it has been 30 years since I've seen it, but it was probably only about 4 ft. in diameter and 4 or 5 feet tall.
It was made by the Singer Corp. and the namplate on it read: Singer Va-Power steam generator. Maybe some .orger out there can update this info.

When you consider that the only flash boilers I'm familiar with are in hot water heaters and steam automobiles, that's big. Is there an accumulator or steam drum to provide reserve for sudden power needs, or can the flash boiler keep up with demand?

Hank, check out this web site:

http://www.vaporpower.com/pages/about.asp

The boiler described is the boiler Capt.Trone used on the JBS, and I assume it is still on her.

As an aside, the marine industry used Va-Power thermal fluid heaters for several years on hot oil (asphalt) barges, but the preferred heater now for asphalt is the Hopkins/Volcanic, as the Va-Power required much more care during use and more maintenance.

Fascinating. Thank you, Bob. I wonder why no one else has used that system.

'cause it tain't natural! 🙂 The flash boiler is much more sensitive to changes in steam requirements, and it's different than what most are used to. Not many folks are building a new steamer from the ground up, so "radical" changes in technology don't really get a chance to be experimented and tested. At least that's how I see it way out here in the crazy west! 🙂
S'
David D.

I finally managed to get myself a copy of Way's Towboats, and lo and behold, there's a photo of the JOY PATTON (T1469) with her boiler turned plum' around backwards and fired from the aft end.

Ran across a drawing of the JACOB STRADER and it looks like she might have originally been aft fired also.