*Costs in building DELTA QUEEN, July, 1925.*

Thanks for sharing--and yes, please share more! Mary

Dale,

I am awaiting more on the edge of my seat! What wonderful information to have aboard the boat. I can see me doing a longer version of her history in a future talk coming.

~Travis~

Interesting indeed, Dale. I have to question some of these costs, though, even for 1925 -- water tanks and lines only $6.72? Materials for rudders and steering for $70.66? These just seem far too cheap, especially in light of what was paid for scaffolding and staging: $466.90. Could the materials for fabrication of 4 rudders, arms, tie rods and associated steam steering gear really only be a little over $70.00? I know I'm not and never have been a "numbers" person, but am I missing something important here?

Could it be that these were costs of one day or week, broken down and attributed to these various components, not necessarily reflecting the entire completed systems? This would seem more likely to me, but then as you say, "what do I know?" ; - )

Dale said these were the labor costs related to, not the costs of material for those things.

Thanks, Judy, this helps with my understanding of some of this, but after the listing of "rudders/steering: $70.66" it says in brackets, "materials only". This is why I wondered if this might not be what had been paid out only for a short period of time for only those components received, not everything needed to set up the entire system. It just seems cheap to me, again, especially in light of what was paid to erect scaffolding and staging. I could certainly buy that that was the total cost of THAT labor.

Yes, in some cases, you might wonder, "What labor?" Incidentally, that $18,129 of 1925 translates into $208,949 in today's money.

Steamboating colleagues:
Bob and Judy are correct in their questions Re: the building of the DELTA QUEEN at Stockton, California between April and July, 1925. I too pondered the figures so neatly typed in the original manuscripts--but there it is. 'Labor' as quoted was done at the Stockton yards, which indicentally were owned by the same 'California Transportation Co.' builders/owners of the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN. The C.T. Co. was a large concern employing in their best years some 1,200 people between the Stockton yards, company offices, wharves and aboard the fleet of steamers. An additional document here for the DELTA KING [Hull No. 1168] is even more complete from November 1, 1924 to July 2, 1925. Other pages not typed are entered in neat accountant ledgers in black ink. To the date above the DELTA KING accounts run as follows:
Labor = $65,486.70
Materials = $28,508.34
TOTAL = $93,995.05
*The above no doubt not totally complete until the boats were finished, equipped, crewed and ready for service.

A additional letter states: "The hulls to be built at Dumarton, Scotland, assembled and fitted out at Stockton, California. Denny Bros. made the offer to build the first of these vessels in 14 December, 1923. They included an alternative proposal for a vessel propelled by 'vane wheels.' The lines are to be as graceful as was compatible with the technical qualities required. Denny Bros. persuaded the owners to use Denny's own steel girder, and do away with the traditional American hog chains, which were quite unncecssary with the steel hulls proposed. The original hull [*KING 1168] was to cost $60,500 plus $25,550 for galvanising. The second hull [QUEEN 1169] a max of $60,500 and minimum of $56.500 depending on rises in wages at the Dumbarton yards. The owners asked that delivery of the QUEEN hull 1169 be delayed for some time to commence work on the first. Denny could charge interest on it at 5% per annum. Denny Bros. provided the cylinders and their covers, the shafts and other parts of the machinery."

John Burns, son of old Jim Burns builder of the two boats, related to me verbally. "My dad puzzled those two boats together with the best materials and labor he could muster and still remain within budget. He sleuthed U.S. military surplus depots & marine companies for top quality new materials at a good price. In the beginning my dad was not enthused with the proposal to build the boats reasoning on changing needs on the rivers, the fine condition of the existing passenger steamers and the evolution of diesel propulsion. Capt. Anderson and the top executives stated to dad in something of a heated meeting that if he was not happy then he could move aside and move on. Dad stuck with it as he was no young man at the time. He gave it his all as we have seen."

I'll distill more here in time as these records are complete and detailed. Judy's calculation on period prices then and now is a good one. By comparison the big sidewheel CINCINNATI was built for the L&C LINE in 1924 at a cost of $417,000 at nearly the same time the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN were being hammered together in Scotland and California. Interesting isn't it?

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

I find these costs fascinating. Also, how they relate to the world that we currently live in. Dale of the "dusty boxes"...do you have any info re freight rates in those days? It is hardly relevant, but back in the 1870s freight charges for bull wagons on the plains were said to be one, to one-and-a-half cents per hundred weight per mile (not ton mile)...Now, THAT had to be some serious money. Back then, I would expect that it was a great deal less on the packet boats and even a lot less still, for bulk towing. What are the comperable rates today for costs per ton mile etc...rail vs barge etc?

Tom & steamboat colleagues:
Interesting question on your part Re: prevailing freight rates for the boats. I don't know the answer until I do further digging. The documents here on the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN pertain to just the design, contracts, figures, costs, schedules, labor, materials, financing--no freight rate information.

When John Burns, son of old Jim Burns, and Stan Garvey visited me here some years back they brought a large amount of materials to study from the 'California Transportation Co.' One item was a large leather bound account book some 18 X 12 X 3 inches bound in dark blue/black leather. It was a freight book from, as I recall, the Str. CAPITOL CITY. No computers or spread sheets in those days but entries were made in columns running down and across. Landings on the Sacramento were listed and with them the freight with rates all entered in fine ink script. I honestly can't recall in detail the costs but remembered the cargo being heavy in agricultural products. One entry was for 'bales of hemp,' another listed 'bound bales of grass' [*Not hay], 'lumber' and 'bound steel rods.' John Burns opined that the book we examined was probably one of the last surviving from that era. More in time on these records.

It's a fact here on the Ohio that for most of his career Capt. Gordon C. Greene made his real money in freight--not passenger trade. Alan Bates may have knowledge of how the freight rates were figured on our rivers here. There were freight charts and books the mate and purser used in figuring costs but they are rare finds today. 'Commodore' Fred Laidley's 'Big Sandy Wharfboat' here in Cincinnati was equipped with big scales for weighing certain cargo before loading or unloading. The GREENE LINE wharfboat here also had a big scale and I recall seeing it as a kid stored back in a dusty corner. No doubt in many cases freight weights were 'guesstimated.'

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Tom, I am not privy to the rates per ton-mile in barges, but it is still measured in mils. Ask Jim Reising. Jim, JIM! Where are you when we need you?

Steamboating colleagues:
Bob Reynolds questioning the seemingly low 'labor costs' in building the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN promoted more digging in the records/files here from DENNY BROS., Dumbarton, Scotland at the 'Leven Ship Yard.' DENNY's 'Cost Estimate' books are impressive at some 12 X 10 inches bound in black leather. All is covered from A to Z in their building and equipping of vessels for the prefabricated/knock-down market. The Leven Yards were famous for years in supplying whole, or in part, steamboats/ships to the world market. DENNY provided a large number of steamboats for service on Asian rivers and related waters. At one time their boats comprised the largest fleet of steamboats in the world until deliberately scuttled before the invading Japanese forces could lay hands on them in the early part of W.W. II.

Interesting to note that all of the exchanges between DENNY and CALIFORNIA TRANSPORTATION CO. on the Sacrament reference the two QUEENS as 'ships,' not steamboats. Quotes and specs for 'Rudders' appear in the records as follows:
1 set of rudders (4) complete
1 spare set complete
1 set tillers complete
1 set shell castings
All is itemized clearly down to labor etc. in Scotland including 'Smiths, engineers, mold loft, patterns, wages, materials, packing. The finals costs are listed in English currency as (L) 927 Pounds. Figuring comparable values then vs. now is difficult. Britain abandoned the gold standard in 1919 following W.W. I. The Pound value was + or - $4.87 against the U.S. $. Most costs listed quote in Pounds, Shillings, Pence. So, the C.T. Co. yards in Stockton, California did not build the above said rudders. They were shipped and dropped into place by workers here. I have a sense not all labor costs were listed. Another possibility is that workers at the Stockton, Calif. yards were listed separately from other subcontractors.

DENNY also suggested to Jim Burns that the hull height on the two boats be increased to 8 ft. 10 & 1/4 inches. DENNY also questioned with concerns the building of 'tanks and wash plates' that would add unnecessary weight to the hull and the stern. This struck a cord with me relating to recent Steamboats.org discussions on the DELTA QUEEN's handling capabilities [Or lack thereof] even down unto the present era. Records reference again and again using the existing Str. FORT SUTTER as the model for the two new QUEENS but on a vastly expanded design. The only wood used in Scotland on the project was for 'packing cases.'

The 'Cost Estimate' books from DENNY mention on one page under 'Furnishings' a line for 'Sundries' and the 'Steward's Dept.' They even thought of musical instruments for vessels and one order space--left blank--list 'Harmonium' and 'Organ.' No, Capt. Anderson and old Jim Burns did not place an order for such. Both QUEENS in time were equipped with their own upright pianos located in the aft cabin assembly area behind the dining room, which was then just aft of the present Purser office.

Records are interesting when it gets to the nitty gritty of financing. More on this in time. Financial issues came to a head with the C.T. Co. here and, for a time, it appeared the DELTA QUEEN would be greatly delayed or not be built.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Steamboating colleagues:
Closer analysis of the old records/order books/Atlantic cables/letters on the building of the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN is moving ahead. A long ten page letter from DENNY & BROS., LEVEN SHIP YARD, DUMBARTON, SCOTLAND is dated 12/6/1924 bearing the names of the company partners: James Denny, John Denny, 'Sir' Archibald Denny, D. Jackson, W. Brock, M.E. Denny, S.K. Ward, J.M. Denny, Jr. Goes without saying that the concern, like the Howard yards in Jeffersonville, IN was a 'family' enterprise. Great Britain from the end of W. W. I through the 1920s was in a 'boom' period in the areas of business and manufcaturing--especially ship building--and very competitive. Britain was at its apogee and the "Sun never set on the British empire.'

The doubts and warning from old Jim Burns over building the QUEENS for the C.T. Co. here were coming to haunt Capt. Anderson and his company officers in San Francisco. The DELTA KING had already started to strain the financial resources of the company in addition to Jim Burns having to geatly expand the yard in Stockton to build the boats. Some adjustments had to be made in ordering and financing the DELTA QUEEN, the second boat of the "two peas in a pod." After the usual required formalities of greetings etc. DENNY gets down to business.
* * * * * * * *
"It remains to devise some scheme whereby you immediately become aware of your maximum commitments, with the possibility of a saving therin. To this end we make a certain proposition to you, which we note with pleasure, you find agreeable. [*This sentence heavily underlined in ink on the letter for impact.] Your question of the accountants who will undertake the checking of the costs is one which can easily be settled at a later date. There are, of course, many large firms [*Accounting] of the highest repute in Glasgow. [*Burns & the C.T. Co. agreed in the end to allow DENNY accountants to do the audits. 'Bean counters' were part of the action then as now.]

We understand that you want the hull of the first vessel [*KING] shipped as soon as it is ready, but that you do not wish to take delivery of the second [QUEEN] for a certain time, which at the moment, you leave indefinite, as the date must depend upon your convenience. [*Hinged on financial situation of the C.T. Co. and getting the KING built on the restricted way space at Stockton, Calif.] The suggested financing and ownership of the second hull on our part would require an additional cost of 5% per annum. [*This in other letters until C.T. Co. could comfortably take financial control of the QUEEN out of DENNY'S hands.]

In these circumstances, we would like to suggest that we, on our part, should finance the construction of the second hull [QUEEN] for you until ready and you indicate for us to dismantle here and ship to you. ...In general terms, of course, by the time you receive these plans it will be too late to make any drastic alterations in the order or the plans as the steel will have been orderd and in our yards." END
* * * * * * * *
C.T. Co sent a later letter 'agreeing' to DENNY's plan to finance and own the QUEEN until they were financially solid to accept the boat in their ownership. With no records we know of in California, it is difficult to learn how long this agreement continued in the ownership of the QUEEN by DENNY after completion into the 1920s. We can only wonder what the feelings were with C.T. Co's owner Capt. Anderson and Jim Burns realizing DENNY were now more than 'silent partners?' Once the two steamers were delivered, built and in commercial operation, the 'debt' could be met.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Steamboating colleagues:
A 'lurker' E=Mailed here the other day asking, "What was the weight of the components for the DELTA QUEEN from DENNY BROS. when shipped from Scotland?" Anaylsis of these files goes on in spare time and rainy winter days offer a fine excuse.

A document of several pages dated March, 1925, from the 'Engineering Department' heads with 'Despatch of Machinery, Etc.' lists in minute detail this information. Tons & pound are quoted along with the traditional British weights in 'stone.'
* * * * * * * *
Mark:
No. 6. 1 H.P. cylinder, finished compete with covers, cover studs in place: Gross 4 tons.
No. 7. 1 L.P. cylinder, " " " " " " " ": Gross 9 tons.
No. 8. 1 wheel shaft with centres [sic] and cranks fixed in place: 17 tons.
No. 9. case containing 4 cast iron slides: Gross 2 tons.
No. 10. one case containing bolts, nuts, studs, stuffing for cylinder, taps, 'special taps,' Crank pins with nuts & end plates: Gross 2 tons.
TOTAL WEIGHT: 35 tons.
* * * * * * * *
DENNY'S Engineering Dept. and accountants were diligent in recording all of the metal fittings down to the ounce for shipping and shipping charges. Wood packing cases were also figured into the weight factor as all would be billed by the steamship company for delivery to San Francisco.

Other information has surfaced in the records involving 'fine joinery' at the yards in Stockton. More on that in time.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Steamboating colleagues:
One of the many attractions that have appealed to people over the years on the DELTA QUEEN has been the fine paneling and wood appointments. Further digging in these old papers/orders/contracts reveals some of the costs in this fine work. The C.T. CO. on the Sacramento--and the ship yards they owned at Stockton, Calif.--show carpenters and workers posing for a 1926 photo by the KING & QUEEN numbering some 65 + or - men. Jim Burns, on behalf of the company and Capt. Anderson, made a known two Atlantic crossings to visit DENNY BROS. on the River Clyde to discuss and finalize plans for the two proposed boats [*Termed 'ships]. All other details communicated via cables and letters to the tune of $502--no small amount then. In 1925 the round sum of $100,000 today would convert roughly to $1,152,000 depending on the Internet conversion scale you consult.

Jim Burns had known Louie Cinnamond, a fine ship 'joiner,' from Scotland who he recruited with some four workers to come to Stockton to accomplish the finer work on the boats similar to cabinetry work above and beyond the usual 'rough carpenters.' Fine paneling, deck benches and the staircases for the boats were their crowning glory. John Burns, Jim's son, related that these men, once getting a taste of life in the United States, opportunities and the appeal of California, never returned to Scotland. They remained here, worked, retired and, for a few, found a home till their final days in Jim's ample residence. No mention of 'residence work status' or citizenship. Jim contracted the lumber for the upper works on the DK/DQ from the West Coast. Being close to all shipping matters in San Francisco, Jim got wind of a fine shipment of Siamese Ironwood and Teak arriving via ship from Asia that had been defaulted on by the consigner. Jim bought this wood up upon arrival at a bargain, had shipped to Stockton and worked in the DK/DQ for railings, cargo deck and other needs. Fine cedar from North America marks the boats today and, at times, the scent is still noticed. Below are some findings on this work for your interest.
* * * * * * * *
1. Building of paddlewheels: Labor = $1,058.52. Material = $939.89 TOT: $1,998.41 [*For each boat.]
2. Steering wheel/brackets [Each] Labor = $90.62. Material = $100.13. TOT: $190.75
3. Pitmans: [Just for KING but same for QUEEN Xs 2: Labor = $424.50. Material = $232.94 TOT: $675.44

The fine staircases on both boats we see today adjacent to the Purser's Office were a real bargain that astounds us. $286.74 in labor. Space for 'Materials' is blank, so total was just for labor. No mention of casting the fine metal work for the railings and that was done to a subcontractor with no amount listed. For a number of years the QUEEN's paneling was painted that unmistakable apple green color so admired in the late 1940s and for a number of years. Capt. Doc Hawley, Capt. Wagner etc. realized the beauty of the original wood and stained glass windows and began a detailed project to strip off the paint and restore. That's a story in itself that others on this web know well.

4. Fine doors and windows just for one boat: Labor = $1,498.02. Materials = $1,264.96. TOT: $2,762.98
5. The celebrated 'Mens quarters' on the bow recently discussed on the web was just for one boat was. Labor = $1,043.56. Materials = $782.44. TOT: $1,826.00.

The above just for one boat; so final tally for both could be doubled + or -

During initial fabrication on the ways at DENNY BROS. in Scotland 'something' happened and the hull of the KING suffered a bad crack. There are two surviving B/W photos of very poor quality showing the hulls of the two boats and there clearly can be seen the big crack/separation in that of the KING. It was repaired and all went on. No doubt the photos were for records and insurance coverage.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

'Costs in building DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN, 1925.'

Steamboating colleagues:
One of the many attractions that have appealed to people over the years on the DELTA QUEEN has been the fine paneling and wood appointments. Further digging in these old papers/orders/contracts reveals some of the costs in this fine work. The C.T. CO. on the Sacramento--and the ship yards they owned at Stockton, Calif.--show carpenters and workers posing for a 1926 photo by the KING & QUEEN numbering some 65 + or - men. Jim Burns, on behalf of the company and Capt. Anderson, made a known two Atlantic crossings to visit DENNY BROS. on the River Clyde to discuss and finalize plans for the two proposed boats [*Termed 'ships]. All other details communicated via cables and letters to the tune of $502--no small amount then. In 1925 the round sum of $100,000 today would convert roughly to $1,152,000 depending on the Internet conversion scale you consult.

Jim Burns had known Louie Cinnamond, a fine ship 'joiner,' from Scotland who he recruited with some four workers to come to Stockton to accomplish the finer work on the boats similar to cabinetry work above and beyond the usual 'rough carpenters.' Fine paneling, deck benches and the staircases for the boats were their crowning glory. John Burns, Jim's son, related that these men, once getting a taste of life in the United States, opportunities and the appeal of California, never returned to Scotland. They remained here, worked, retired and, for a few, found a home till their final days in Jim's ample residence. No mention of 'residence work status' or citizenship. Jim contracted the lumber for the upper works on the DK/DQ from the West Coast. Being close to all shipping matters in San Francisco, Jim got wind of a fine shipment of Siamese Ironwood and Teak arriving via ship from Asia that had been defaulted on by the consigner. Jim bought this wood up upon arrival at a bargain, had shipped to Stockton and worked in the DK/DQ for railings, cargo deck and other needs. Fine cedar from North America marks the boats today and, at times, the scent is still noticed. Below are some findings on this work for your interest.
* * * * * * * *
1. Building of paddlewheels: Labor = $1,058.52. Material = $939.89 TOT: $1,998.41 [*For each boat.]
2. Steering wheel/brackets [Each] Labor = $90.62. Material = $100.13. TOT: $190.75
3. Pitmans: [Just for KING but same for QUEEN Xs 2: Labor = $424.50. Material = $232.94 TOT: $675.44

The fine staircases on both boats we see today adjacent to the Purser's Office were a real bargain that astounds us. $286.74 in labor. Space for 'Materials' is blank, so total was just for labor. No mention of casting the fine metal work for the railings and that was done to a subcontractor with no amount listed. For a number of years the QUEEN's paneling was painted that unmistakable apple green color so admired in the late 1940s and for a number of years. Capt. Doc Hawley, Capt. Wagner etc. realized the beauty of the original wood and stained glass windows and began a detailed project to strip off the paint and restore. That's a story in itself that others on this web know well.

4. Fine doors and windows just for one boat: Labor = $1,498.02. Materials = $1,264.96. TOT: $2,762.98
5. The celebrated 'Mens quarters' on the bow recently discussed on the web was just for one boat was. Labor = $1,043.56. Materials = $782.44. TOT: $1,826.00.

The above just for one boat; so final tally for both could be doubled + or -

During initial fabrication on the ways at DENNY BROS. in Scotland 'something' happened and the hull of the KING suffered a bad crack. There are two surviving B/W photos of very poor quality showing the hulls of the two boats and there clearly can be seen the big crack/separation in that of the KING. It was repaired and all went on. No doubt the photos were for records and insurance coverage.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick