Film of steamboats; Way

*RE: Fred Way's steamboat movies*
Hi, Tom & steamboating colleagues:
Good point RE: Fred Way's classic steamboat movies taken years ago. Most of us on this board have seen/know about his movies with much pleasure. I'll run this by Woody Rutter ASAP. Woody also has fine movies he's taken over the years including color footage of the SS SOUTH AMERICAN and other now long gone Great Lakes passenger ships under steam. H.C. Putnam also took a number of fine movies in black/white and color as did other active river personalities in their day. Keith knows of the fine camera work on film at the Howard Museum. Such movie work with expensive cameras etc. was no small endeavor in those days verging on a personal luxury or part of professions. Compare movie cameras to the average daily/weekly working wage in those years. Most camera buffs developed their own prints at home in basements or attics as a hobby--or to save money.

Andy Lodder, professional photographer and long-time fixture around the old GREENE LINE, took literally stacks of old movies of the Greene boats and others running then. Included were shots of Greene family affairs on the boats and at home. These Andy's son has shown at past S&D meetings--with more that probably haven't seen the light of day in years. Proper strorage, temperature control etc. vital in keeping films preserved before converting to digital. No doubt others on this web know far more about this technology than I do. The Cincinnati Historical Society, Union Terminal, has a fine state of the art movie storage facility resembling a huge walk-in cold room in stainless steel with movies and other film materials under climatic control.

I've whined, groused, pouted several times on .org over the incredible collection of old B/W movies the Cincinnati Public Schools literally tossed in the dumpsters back in the 1970s when videos came in with school movie projectors going out. I was within days of getting to the collection of old movies of steamboats here, New Orleans along with vintage footage of period ocean liners in New York harbor. Movies included the QUEEN CITY, SENATOR CORDILL, big CINCINNATI inside and out while underway ISLAND QUEEN 1 and 2, BETSY ANN, landings here in Cincinnati and Louisville etc. along with views of classic steam towboats. The late Charles/Lorena Brown spent their honeymoon back on/around 1940/'41` on a GORDON C. GREENE Cincinati to New Orleans and return trip starting in cold weather with scenes of a blizzard and Capt. Tom Greene standing duty on the roof bundled up. Lorena and I split the cost of converting those films. Makes us stop and think of what has been tragically lost and what has survived. I've cringed hearing people in Cincinnati say, "Oh, we tossed a bunch of old boat photos out in the trash...would have saved them for you if you wanted when we cleaned the old house out." Enough of me crying over spilled milk. 'Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.'

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Dale,

What we need is to develop a group who is dedicated to preservation to digitize these images and preserve them.

Lots of these libraries are not equipped to handle the huge bulk they have and the sad reality is images are lost. Lets face it, we are in another Depression, wether we want to say the words or not! That said, if individuals would step up to the plate and digitize this stuff for libraries, it could be preserved.

What I'd give to have seen some of what is lost...it could teach us so much about our history!

Travis

*RE: Digital Archiving Etc.*
Hi, Tavis & steamboatingv colleagues:
Great suggestion above and I concur 100%. One matter is WHO has WHAT and WHERE? to offer such footage from their private possesion. A recent private archivist on PBS decried many who keep all a big secret not wanting to share. In time it's often too late. You know the number of museums, archives, repositories now converting to digital. Those in the technical know say, "Yeah, but what if the technique for projecting, viewing changes in time as we've seen with 35 mm slides etc., then what do you do? 'Power Point' for still shots a way to go. Videos as we knew then also biting the dust. We've had family movies converted to DVDs here by labs and it doesn't come cheap--but worth it. Also previewing with knowing eyes to discern what is the best to preserve. Several cooperating individuals with steamboat footage often soften their stance when they know they'll be given copies for their generosity. Such a project could be proposed to existing libraries/foundations/organizations so interested for help. Lots of flies in the honey but it's worth a try. I still get nauseated knowing what has been accidently, unthinkingly, deliberately tossed out or simply forgotten. Cheers.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Without going to "huge bulk" of libraries, just imagine what many of us, on here, have personally, including photographs, movies, slides, and video and audio tapes that are, in their own rights, just as informative and historic as those made by the 'professionals'. What is going to happen to them?

Sharing our collections

As Dale pointed out, it is too bad that some people keep their collections a secret or don't share images with others. The .org community is quite good about posting and sharing from our personal archives. Of course you always have one or two who have excuses for not posting/sharing photos, but overall I don't think you can beat this group for spreading the gospel of the river - and that goes for information too, not just graphics. There is rarely a question posed that doesn't elicit some answer or where to look for the answer. As to the final disposition of our collections, now that is problematic...

Which brings up the question, "What's going to happen to all this great 'stuff' gathered within this website when that eventual day comes that dot.org is no more?"

Where is the Lodder collection now? Can we prevail upon the family to work with those of us interested to get this done? And what about Woody Rutter's collection? That would also be a good starting point. I have some Rudy Gerber films of a GORDON C. GREENE trip he took, and some other river stuff that we put on DVD several years ago. My brother-in-law Dan Shrake also digitized his grandfather's photo collection and we have that on DVD as well, photos dating back to him riding the CAPITOL in the 1930's.

As to evolving technology, that's no excuse. We get them transferred to whatever the newest medium is, then down the road we or someone else does it again. If we wait too long, there won't be any projectors, etc. for the conversion. As it is, I had to buy a bulb for an 8mm projector about 5 years ago, and it had to be special-ordered and then cost about $20. Don't even know if one could be bought today. We can't wait.

And that, too, is a great question, Sam! I vote for an old-fashioned book.

I have a Sony DVDirect device that does a nice job converting VHS to DVD. It's very user friendly, and has paid for itself in my opinion because sending out VHS to convert via Walgreens, etc. is min. of $25. Being an airline employee, I have converted my many VHS of airliners taking off and landing to preserve them. I also have The Unsinkable Delta Queen on VHS and have preserved it, as well as the 1992-1996 Great Steamboat Race coverage between the Belle and Queen I recorded, and coverage of the American Queen stuck in Indiana on the maiden voyage upriver. So I offer up myself to convert any steamboat VHS anyone wants to preserve, to do my part!

Dust to Dust ...

My 8mm films of the DELTA QUEEN, mainly, that went back into the mid '60's with much footage taken in 1970-'71, were converted to VHS, and now that medium is obsolete. Slides, once the premier method of photography for display, are difficult to copy to digital, and audio tapes become brittle. John Hartford sent me some great tapes of he and Dennis Trone blowing the MISSISSIPPI whistle on the JULIA BELLE SWAIN.... and so on.

Captains Jim Blum and Gabe Chengary were always photographing and filming, and I am sure they have great things. Gabe made some very fine films 'during the day", and Jim's slides were always a treat to watch.

The 1970 SAVE THE DELTA QUEEN campaign was extensively documented by the crew, and I wonder what has survived-- including my own stuff. I have the "Last Trip - 1970" on 8mm transfer to VHS that goes from loading for departure at Cincinnati to arriving at St. Paul, and finishes with the steamboat laid-up in the Industrial Canal, in New Orleans, awaiting her fate. Willie and Buster has stills from the film.

Willie and Buster's Whirlwind Tour of the World - "Last Trip" 1970

I have the capability to transfer 16mm, 8mm and Super 8mm film to DV tape, DVCam tape, and DVD. If you've seen our DVD "Iron Crowns and Paddlewheels" you can get an idea. It has film dating from as far back as 1928. I do this all the time with vintage railroad films for our video productions.

The results depend on the condition of the original film, of course. If the film has shrunken or gotten brittle, it can be a lost cause. However, there are film transfer facilities that can handle the tough cases but they are not cheap. I've used several of them over the years.

As for producing DVDs for sale, the steamboat market is far smaller than the railroad market so the costs would need to be justified before taking on a project. If there is any interest from anyone with film footage, please let me know.

-Jim Herron

In the days when I worked for the Nebraska State Historical Society, they stated to digitize their photo Collection. Their plan was to make copies of the disks every three years and to be sure when they got new computers to up date the pictures to the programs on the new system. I have lost some data bases because I did not update to the new system when installed on a old or new computer.

Nebraska found that those old glass plate negatives were very fine grained. and they have been able to lighten black doorways to see inside sod house and to read sheet music that is about a 1/4 inch square on the Negative. So if you are copying from glass plate negatives be sure to use the highest number of pictals you can get.

Ut Riverrat.

I agree with all this, but Jerry Sutphin was the projectionist for the film's presentation on December 6,1980. But, the question remains: where's the film? Cap'n Walnut.

Hey Tom,

I contacted Mr. Sutphin several years back about video he had of the Betsy Ann/Tom Greene races. I even offered to pay to get the film transfered to DVD. After short consideration I was turned away. It would be nice if individuals who have these pieces of history would offer them up so that those of us willing to help pay to save them could not only do just that but also be able to make copies for us and future generations to be able to see. With the volume of talent on this website this shouldn't be that daunting a task, it's just getting those who have the film to "see the light".

Just my two cents!

Aaron

Aaron: According to Jerry Sutphin at the time of the film's 12-6-80 showing said: "...the movie's existance is due to the fact that Cap'n Way became captivated with taking movies in the early 30s, while piloting the SENATOR CORDILL, JS and WASHINGTON using a movie camera his mother had given him. He then added earlier footage 1928-1930 of BETSY ANN races acquired from professional newsreel sources and reduced to 16mm. Several years ago Eastman Kodak, Rochester, NY, realizing the historic worth of the documentary, borrowed the original film, cleaned, restored and repaired it and made a copy to assure its preservation, all at no cost to Cap'n Way. Since then, other prints have been made from the restored original, one of which is owned by Harold Nichols." Some of you may have seen it. The film would seem to have belonged to Fred Way, not Jerry. Kodak stepped up and did the pretty back then, but now is now. Cap'n Walnut.

*RE: Andy Lodder's famed movies*
Hi, Judy, Tom, Bob, Shipyard & steamboating colleagues:
Andy's Lodder's son Bob had a fine photo studio here in Pleasant Ridge, Cincinnati until retirement. A number of these movies shown at S&D or at the Lodder home years ago. Bob McCann, Richard Stewart and I viewed many in the collection. Some of you recall Bob Lodder bringing old B/W prints to S&D for sale at rock bottom prices several years ago.

The incubator for me chiming in on Tom's thread began this week as I mused over still existing old steamboat records, memoirs, letters, business papers, photos languishing. Capt. Bill Judd also opined about the future. Bill has a son and grandsons; I have only two nephews and a niece living in Michgan far from our rivers who could possibly care less in years to come. Face it, we're all moving down the yellow brick road of life. I'm closer in time to 70 than even 60. Judy, Keith and others also have great collections gleaned by years of digging, research, gifts from even older people we knew now long gone. My autogaphed books, photos and ancient ink penned steamboat letters and memoirs [Some typed on the first typewriters on/around 1890] need to be marked for deposit in time. You've all GOT IT RIGHT

*No. 2 RE: Lodder's famed movies*
Steamboating colleagues:
A perfect example of what I was finishing above just happened. I accidently hit the wrong key and POOF! Capt. Fred Way, when offered the gift of a then new digital typewriter and later computer backed off. "What if I'm typing with my arthritic hands and hit the wrong key? It's GONE! and I have to start over." For this reason Fred Way stuck to the laborious old method of composing, sizing photos, RE-TYPING a 2nd time before laying out on the 'boards' for 'Richardson Printing' to grind out his REFLECTORS. Fred's thousands of hand written index cards, books, REFLECTORS testify to his abiding scholarship. "Dad couldn't wait until early morning each day to get busy in the basement composing," said his daughter Bee Rutter.

Bill Judd and I 'wondered' the other day what Fred could have done with a computer today; not to mention the interviews we could have recorded of now long gone steamboat veterans too numerous to mention. The moral? Get your stories from such people--and yourselves--down on paper [Or a voice recorder]. Get those stories and research off to organizations you know/support like S&D C/O David Tschiggfrie. Get things organized over the winter in good storage boxes so noted. Get those old movies, 35 mm slides, B/W prints, letters etc. together in safe/acid free containers. Let your family, children, grandchildren, heirs know what's what. The golden threads of memories and oral traditions often bear rich rewards. Never mind the 'deconstructionists' or 'politically correct' whining. Steamboat history isn't a real science. The veracity of 'first hand accounts' often raises questions. Yet, that's what historians go for. They were THERE then and we're all HERE now. 'Time and tide wait for no man or woman.'

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Mile No. 465, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

And, as a long time member of the Ohio County Historical Society here in Rising Sun, Indiana, I'd like to second your post. But, if you find that your children are not interested, please don't let the information die with you. We have found that collections get scattered and the history of the artifact is sadly and irrevocably lost. So, if your kids don't seem to be the historical junkies you are, perhaps you might think of donating your gems to a local historical society where they can be preserved and displayed for others to enjoy. I've begun doing this, and even though it is more difficult than I anticipated, I also know that it is the right thing to do. Just a thought.

*RE: Breaking up of great collections*
Hi, Dana & steamboating colleagues:
I agree with you--and others above. Not to mention names, but a year or so ago I was given access to view one incredible collection of Western art [i.e. Native American peoples, pioneers, early railroads, U.S. Army etc.]. Among the materials was a vast collection of Battle of the Little Big Horn, Gen. George Custer, down to maps, photos, drawings, 'souvenirs' of bullets--on and on. I passed out seeing before me a B/W photo of Gen. Custer in camp. Here 12 inches away from me was Custer's surviving leather, wood folding camp recliner chair. I 'touched' but dared not sit. I was floored to say the least. What happened? By agreement and consignment the collection was divided in parcels and auctioned off. It broke my heart thinking of not only the Smithsonian Institution but other Western History museums/archives that could have possibly bid. Yet, I had no knowedge of the previous owner(s) or their plight. 'Money often thicker than blood.' The sight of all that material and artifacts made me weak in the knees. That's the way it goes.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Ouch. I literally can't even imagine what I would have done in your place -- hyperventilated, I suppose. It is sad to see so much lost through familial good intentions, let alone because of money.

On the other hand

On the other hand, an auction can be good - many of us now have wonderful steamboat artifacts and memorabilia thanks to the forward looking Bert Fenn. He had his collection auctioned off - not for the money, but to get it distributed to those who would really appreciate it. Too often things are donated to institutions which then store/file them in the netherlands of the building, rarely if ever to be seen again, or an institution charges an outrageous amount for access/copy of a photo or item. Bert's auction was truly a happening and a gift to the steamboating world. From it I now own a ladle from the EFFIE AFTON, financial records from the AVALON, and a potpourri of papers from the Greene Line. Roddy was thrilled to get an item that the builder of his house had owned. Keith has several items too. I imagine there are other posters who obtained things too. And before the excuse is posted that you couldn't be there to bid, you didn't have to be...Roddy and I poured over the booklet of items and placed our bids by mail from NOLA. This was truly open to everyman...

Sigh: Still no answer to the question by the ranking experts of steamboat information? Cap'n Walnut

Sigh: Still no answer to the question by the ranking experts of steamboat information? Cap'n Walnut

the answer

As I recall, the question was: is Fred Way's movie available to the public? As someone stated, Jerry Sutphin had a copy of it and did not wish to sell a copy of it. So there is one NO. I assume the original is in the collection of Fred's son-in-law, Woody Rutter, as he used this collection after Fred's death for the REFLECTOR. Woody reads this board, even though he doesn't post, so perhaps Woody would be so kind as to let someone who posts know whether or not he has this movie, and whether or not he would make it available to interested parties. Hope all is well with you and Bee, Woody, and if you wish you could email me with the status of that movie. [email protected]