GORDON C. GREENE 1939/w.w.II Years.

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Hi, Pete & steamboatinc colleagues:
The interesting thing about those GORDON C. GREENE cruises in W.W. II years is the conversation rate to 2007 dollars ($). Depending on the scale you use the $84 trips would + or - be $1,178 today. The 20 day NOLA/St. Paul jaunts would be + or - $3,508 today. This not figuring bus or train connections as few flew in those days. These rates per person. Capt. Fred Way's accounts were that the GORDON was a big hit making a lot of money for the GREENE LINE. Due to the war there were few travel opportunities available to those who could take the time and had the money. Rationing was in evidence and Fred Way mentioned eating chicken on the GORDON...lots and lots of chicken. Sugar was precious as gold and butter replaced by what we know now as oleo.

Autos on Atlantic liners date way back. I've seen autos shipped both ways on old QUEEN ELIZABETH, QUEEN MARY, UNITED STATES Etc. Frank Prudent could enlighten us if autos are still shipped on the QE-2 in her present configuration. The first year of the QE-2 I saw a number of Americans shipping their autos from New York to LeHavre, France. On the old QUEEN ELIZABETH, QUEEN MARY autos were lifted into and out of the holds all the time arriving in Ireland, England, France. At Cobh, Ireland I saw an expensive Cadillac being lifted out of the hold to place on the tender. The strong wind sent the auto smashing into the side of the ship with chrome, glass and metal showering into the sea below.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Interesting indeed about the autos. Does anyone have any idea how many folks actually did this? I can see that if say, 50 cars were carried it might pose a problem. Or, maybe not(?). Anybody know? Did the Coast Guard/Steamboat Inspection Service put any restrictions on this?

As for trans-Atlantic cars being carried, I know a lot of people like to order cars from Mercedes, BMW, Bentley, etc. and pay for them at the factory while traveling abroad (at I assume a very reduced rate over what one would pay through a dealer in this country). I also assume that even with the cost of shipping back here it is still an attractive option. Do folks have the cars shipped on the same vessel they return on, or do they generally fly back and have those cars sent on a freighter or container ship?

During the WWII every riverboat was required to display a flag of cloth or metal. It was about two feet by two feet with a big black dot on a yellow background. We didn't know why it was required and suppositions were that they showed submarine observers were aboard, no torpedoes were armed, the crew was composed of American citizens, only, and that yellow and black could not be mistaken for the Rising Sun Japanese flag. Nobody was allowed to have a camera and the lockmen wore pistols. It worked. Not one riverboat was sunk by enemy action!

Regarding current camera restrictions on the river, Franz and I found out first hand in NOLA. I took him down on the Chalmette-Algiers ferry from which I have taken many great shots of the NATCHEZ heading downriver and turning around. After he had taken quite a few pix, the deckhand came over and told him no photos were allowed on the ferry - its landing is next to the Exxon Mobil Refinery, and even though it was obvious Franz wasn't aiming in that direction, he had to put the camera away. An hour later we were on the Canal Street Ferry, and he was able to shoot away as the NATCHEZ passed us.

R. Dale Flick;8552 wrote: Hi, Pete & steamboatinc colleagues:
The interesting thing about those GORDON C. GREENE cruises in W.W. II years is the conversation rate to 2007 dollars ($). Depending on the scale you use the $84 trips would + or - be $1,178 today. The 20 day NOLA/St. Paul jaunts would be + or - $3,508 today. This not figuring bus or train connections as few flew in those days. These rates per person.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Hmm... that would make the 20 day trip $175 a day per person today. In my DQ days, 1973-83, my first and lowest fare was $60 a day, the most $105. I believe most of my 41 trips were about $95 a day in fare. I always figured the whole trip's cost was double the fare, what with bar bill, tips, gift shop, photos/film, transportation to and from. I often did back-to-back UMR trips so I could leave my car in St. Louis for the 2 weeks- sometimes in Jim Blum's driveway! Incidentally, my $2.88 Planters Punch would be $7.21 today...

Dear Bob & gang:
Good question RE: autos on the GORDON C. GREENE. I've seen a few photos of the time and it appeared there weren't all that many. Alan and others may have more information on this. In the war years there were in evidence steel drums etc. with canvas over them on the GORDON's bow. I'm sure I recall Letha Greene telling me that at the time she and the family also raised chickens in coops at home due to the food rationing to supplement. Our family had a 'Victory Garden' on the river at Coal Haven Landing. I recall at a tiny age standing with mother in line with ration coupons in hand at the stores and bakery. If citizens got caught cheating, holding back or dealing in rationed products--or running mouths too much objecting etc.--you found out pretty darned fast who the 'authorities' were.

Autos on Atlantic liners I saw were going east and west in the holds of CUNARD, U.S. LINES, FRENCH LINE, ITALIAN LINE ships. These were the property of passengers mostly in 1st Class who used their private autos touring Europe. Autos and even small trucks were lowered in the holds for shipment. There were quoted rates for weight, make, length by the line. The recent trend to purchase autos in Europe and have shipped back 'may' have slowed due to the poor exchange rate and the rise of the Euro. No doubt it still may be done but is rife with problems for the auto purchaser that can bleed $$$. From what I saw and remember those who had it didn't flinch over a little extra $$$.

Oh, yes, even these GORDON folders have fine B/W photos featuring very well dressed and groomed men and women on the decks looking fondly in each others eyes or at some point on the shore in excitement. The promo/PR art was in full flower, but that's what it took. Judy figures right RE: the cruise fares then compared to now with all of the 'incidentals' tossed in. Makes us stop and think, doesn't it?

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

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I heard that the yellow flag with the big black dot, the international signal flag for "I", meant that all crew was "identified" with U.S.C.G. issued mariners' I.D. cards. Some where I saw my Grandfather Prudent's I.D. card. He worked for Coney Island as a carpenter, and needed to have one if he did any carpentry work on the ISLAND QUEEN.

Cunard stopped taking cars on the QUEEN ELIZABETH 2 a number of years ago. Perhaps it was when Carnival Corporation became Cunard's owner in 1998. The R.M.S. QUEEN MARY 2, which came out in 2003, never had a garage.

Hey, Judy:
Good 'cipherin' on your part with the 'then vs. now' cruise rates RE: GORDON C. GREENE. The figure for that Planters Punch is on the money [Oh, that was a bad one]. I assume the $7.21 + today would include the nice 'souvenir' glass in came in? 'Hmmmmm.'

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Bow of the GCG

I couldn't find any pictures showing autos on the GORDON, but I'm posting 3 of the bow which raise a couple of questions for me: 1) How did they get the cars on with that huge pile of coal on the bow? 2) Where is the coal in #1, did they tow a coal barge alongside sometimes?
Picture 3 is coming under the bridge in Charleston W.Va.. Note the huge pile of coal on the bow. No date on this pix, but the second texas is there and the decks are still open, so it must be around 1940. Picture 2 was taken on June 7, 1936 in Lesage W. Va. On the stage are: Capt. Doc Carr, Mrs. Chris Greene, Roy L. Barkhau, and Robert McCann. Leaning against the barrel on deck is Capt. Wm. Sutar (sp?). This is from C.W.'s collection. Picture 1 is at Louisville, looks like the same time frame as #3, but where is the coal? Its not visible on the bow. (sorry, the pix posted in reverse order)

The coal was dumped onto the foredeck of the Greene Line boats via a chute at a coalyard just below Cincinnati. The deckhands then wheeled it in to the storage bin forward of the firebox.

The "I" idea is probably true. Those of us on the boats regarded the whole business as a lot of foolishness. We were required to get ID cards. Cameras were verboten. We could not get on or off on the lock walls. Lockmen handled the shore end of lines.
In war times governments do such things as much to get everybody's attention as for any other reason. Daylight saving time was such a thing. The public thought, "If the government has to mess with 'God's own time,' then this must be a serious crisis."

The other day Kenny Howe and I were poking around at the Howard Museum and stuck in a room which is not opened to the public is a big rolodex from the local Coast Guard office. The rolodex contains a card with the name of each license holder from the Louisville office. On each card was the holders license...pilot, engineer, mate, motor boat operator, etc. and a history of the date of original issue, renewals and updates. The time period was from about 1920 through 1955. Well, as we looked through the names of some people we knew I noticed that starting in 1940 every license holder had to show proof of citizenship. The proof took amny forms....birth certificate, or hospital records, or church records, or statements from neighbors. So nothing changes, today once again since 9/11 mariners have to show proof of citizenship.

Hi, Jim & steamboating colleagues:
Very interesting discovery you made at the Howard Museum RE: the Rolodex file (c.1920-1955). I'm always amazed at the great discoveries that still are to be found in the museum collection. That's a 'keeper' and would be interesting not only to steamboaters but to those interested in the history of the World War II years. 'What goes around comes around.' Big interest today in World War II ephemera of all kinds. Life in the U.S. changed drastically following Dec. 7, 1941 and even our rivers and boats reflected it.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Bob McCann told me that the Coast Guard had heartburn about moving cars in the GCG and they changed the rules and required that all gasoline be drained from the cars before they were brought aboard. The logistics got too much.