Hines, etc.

David, I know that Gulf Oil had at least one of their own boats, the GULF INLANDER. It was renamed the LUKE GLADDERS at one time and I THINK is now the MARY LYNN, owned by Steel City Marine Transport.

Gulf also had their own ships in the coast-wise trade running between various U.S. ports on both the Gulf and East Coasts. Some of their navigation officers also held first-class pilotage on the Mississippi River up to Baton Rouge, allowing them to take ships up the river without taking a pilot aboard, much to the chagrin of the ship pilots' associations! Capt.Doc Hawley can shed some light on that one. Their aging single skin offshore fleet, coupled with Jones Act manning and inspection laws brought an end to thier coast-wise operations in the early 1980's.

I seem to also remember that Hougland worked towing product for Gulf Oil on the Ohio and Cumberland Rivers; maybe the Tennessee also?

I would love to have a history of Hines, Inc. (which is what I hope you are working on for the REFLECTOR!). One time Fred Way had a story of Duncan Hines (the man) and how the cake mix got its name, the same as the boat that Hines owned. One and the same person, and I will not spoil the story for you if you intend to repeat it in a REFLECTOR article.

Hines

Capt. Bob This Smith is not the S & D Reflector editor. Our David is David K. Smith. However I really like the thought of a Hines history for the Reflector and I will persue that with our noble Editor Smith. Now Mr. D. M Smith, I saw your previous post with Carmen's answer about me and some old posts on the John J. Kelley. As to the Gulf operation on the Kentucky River, as the old boy said " been there and done that" E-mail me at, Judd @ fuse.net.

Oh, come on now, Capt. Bill -- you don't think your gonna get off THAT easy, do you?!? I for one would love to hear about that operation on that small stream. Let us all hear your story(s), please!

I stand corrected on the misunderstanding of Smiths.

Sorry for the confusion. I am also David Smith, but I am only a retired truck driver and AMATEUR historian. Cap'n Bill, I will e-mail you in the near future Thanks!!!

Hines

Welcome aboard David M. Smith. There is no such thing as " only a retired truck driver". Like those of us in the river business, trucking is a vital part of the total transportation scheme. Trucks play a major role in handling tonnage to and from our barges. As to the "amatuer historian", well welcome to the club. Now then Capt. Bob Reynolds, if the tales gets real good as to Gulf, Hines and other Kentucky River rascals it will get posted, truth, lies and all.

Cap'n Bill, I just got back home from a trip and read your comments. I haul cars part-time for some dealers in the Lexington, KY area. Makes me a little pocket money and gets me out of the house. I hauled gasoline for 32 years, and hauled out of the Gulf terminal at Frankfort in it's last days. I would like to learn all I can about the Gulf gasoline towing operation on the Kentucky river. Some men I knew at Gulf in Frankfort were Max Price, Howard Tracy, Gene Vanderpool, C.C.White, Bill Fitzpatrick, Richard Barkley, Bob Davison and Joel Hamilton. Tracey, Vanderpool, and Hamilton were originally from the Camp Nelson terminal. Bob Davison went to Louisville when Frankfort closed and worked with Ed Nunemaker. My father started as a driver with Gulf at Camp Nelson in 1935. When Camp Nelson closed, he was assigned to Frankfort, then to Louisville when Frankfort closed. He retired at Louisville in 1970. I also hauled gasoline out of the Louisville terminal for many years. My cousin, George W. Dean, is involved with the historic activities at Camp Nelson and High Bridge. Together, we have been collecting information and pictures from both locations. We, as well as everyone else on this site, would really enjoy hearing your stories. Also,we really need to find any pictures anyone has of the Gulf Terminal at Camp Nelson. Best regards, David M. Smith.

Mr. Smith

Your recent posting stirred up great memories about the Hines Inc. out of Bowling Green, Kentucky as my father Capt. Henry H. (Jack) Ray did work for them for many years, including their Kentucky River operation towing for Gulf Oil Company from North Bend, Ohio to Camp Nelson/Frankfort, Kentucky. While I personally have never made the trip, my day operated both the M/V John J. Kelly, a sternwheeler and later the M/V Producer II a single screw. They normally towed a three (3) small barges (approximately 30 x130) tow, which I believe belonged to Gulf and were distinctively noticeable for each had a "tankerman's" house on each barge.
My dad first became associated with the Hines organization back about the time they were operating the M/V New Hanover towing on the Green and Barren Rivers to Bowling Green. At the time he was operating the M/V Jane Rhea for the Evansville Veneer and Lumber Company and would at times contract tow for them. My Dad grew up on the Green Rive, being born in Rumsey Kentucky and was one of the best Green River ever to navigate those waters. Later he would work for Hines full time both as a pilot/Capt and an Engineer on all Hines early boats including the M/V Hines Zephyr, which was formally the M/V Ivan Harris (another interesting story).
The Kentucky River was very similar to the Green/Barren as the locks were very small and had to be operated (gates) by hand. With multiple barge tow, all hands had to turn out for the locking both to open the gates and pull the two out the lock manually. Try that on a cold and snowy night.
So I hope I have added some color and background to the history you seek.
Any specific question I will be glad to attempt.

Best Regards,
Ed Ray
Dublin, Ohio

Bill

Would have happen to know my father Capt. Henry H. (Jack) Ray who also worked on the John J. Kelly (I have a great picture you might be interested in seeing) on the Kentucky River.

Ed Ray
Dublin Ohio

Mr. Ray, I just read your post. Unfortunately, I am just leaving for a trip, so I will have to write more when I return Thursday. Was your dad the big man who just wore pants and a t-shirt in the coldest weather? I'm sorry I can't recall any of the Hines employees names. I was at Frankfort the night one of the Hines men was returning from town and fell in the river and drowned. I was probably about 14 years old at the time. I was there with my father. More later. Best regards, David M. Smith.

Here are some photos of the John J Kelly on the Kentucky River.

Another photo of the Hines Zephyr, John J Kelly, and tender "Billy", probably on the KY River, but might be the Green River..

Hi Steve

You never run out of information, and while I have never been on the Kentucky River, my quess that this picture was taken at Bowling Green on the Barren River. As I recall it was just wide enough to turn small steamboat round and it was the home of Hines Inc corporate headquarters. What ever happen to the Kelly or the Zephyr ?
Best regards to you and Barbara,
Ed Ray

Hines

In the last photo of the three boats, the Hines Zephyr is next to shore for sure, but the boat lying next to her is not the Kelley or the Producers. I need to do a little mind searching on this one. Much later built boat, just look at her towing knees. More later.

VERY interestings pics! Capt. Bill, it looks like there was a lot of work involved in this operation. True? Also, when did tankermen stop staying on barges and stop being responsible for only their barge, and start being a regular member of the towboat crew, with duties on the boat as well as on the barge?

Capt. Bill

While I agree the Towing knees on what you refered to as "the other boat" are unusually large, in Steve Huffman's previous picture of the Kelly with the barge Frankkin you can make out some yery extra large towing knees.

Ed Ray

Hines

Ed: You have good eyes. Those same knees do show up with the "Franklin" barge. Every photo I have shows the Kelley with narrow wood faced knees. Now I wonder when the new knees were added. In that photo her freeboard also seems a lot higher than I remember. Maybe the "old girl" got a facelift.
In answer to your question, the Kelley burned at Rising Sun, In. on 8-29-58 and the Hines Zephyr ( later the Keene) became a houseboat called the Norma A and sunk at Duffy, Oh in 1978. Her remains were still there for many years.

I'm not sure when they changed the towknees, but the John J Kelly seems to have received a number of changes sometime after 1953 and before or during 1956. Maybe Hines sold the boat in 1955 and it was remodeled(?). My Inland River Records jump from 1949 to 1959, and by '59 there is no mention of the John J. Kelly, even in the "Former Names" section.

I have the following info from someone:
"The Kelly usually had three barges for Gulf. One each went to the Carrollton dock, just above Lock #1, the Frankfort dock, just above #4, and the last to Camp Nelson. She laid by at Camp Nelson while the barge was pumped out and then back down to collect the other barges. Her loading point was at Gulf-North Bend. When the Kelly wore out, Hines placed the M/V Producers in that trade."

The first photo is from July 7, 1943. The next is from August 1951, and finally the September 1956 photo with guards "awash". By 1956 she suddenly has a captain's quarters behind the pilothouse, "wing bridge" steps and other minor changes. All of these things must have added more weight, and she already had very little freeboard. I also have a 1953 photo in which she does not yet have these changes.

I'm always looking for more info on these boats!

(1943 photo courtesy of the Boat Photo Museum: [email protected]; 1951 and 1956 photos courtesy of Betty's Family Collectibles, Carrollton, KY).

...Correction... My 1953 photo shows the John J. Kelly WITH captain's quarters and the other changes, so these changes happened between 1951 and 1953. Does anyone know if there was a change of ownership around 1952?

Hines

Steve: The Kelley stayed in Hines ownership till the bitter end in 1958. The qoute on her trade is from one of my older posts.

Hi Steve

In your 1943 photo I think you can make out some very large towing knees even then as they look like they build-steps. (Great for a old deckhand) I also marvel at the amount of water the wheel is lifting as I recall that somewhere I heard that for the optomium wheel efficency is when the outer ring just breaks the water and normally this indicated when the water shed is about middle of the wheel. Any higher mean the buckets panks are digging too deep. That is the reason they load balance in the bow to trim up the wheel. At least that is what I learn when my dad was rebuilding the Jane Rhea. They even tested it by coming full ahead against the bank. Of course that was a long time ago.
Best wishes Steve
Ed

Yes, as Bill said, the Kelly had almost no freeboard in the 1950s. I suspect as they added more weight to the boat, they didn't bother with raising the height of the wheel shaft and bearings to make up for the deeper draft. So the buckets probably were digging too deep. But that's just my theory!

Hines

Steve that 1943 photo must have been taken just after Earl Webster converted her over to diesel. He also gave her that name, reportedly in honor of a war hero. She had been a steamboat, the Beder Wood. Built 1915 at Dubuque. The Kelley lasted 43 years, not bad. Hines had her 1943 to 1958. That's 15 years of very hard service on the Kentucky and Green and all done with 300 h.p. We've come a long way from that day and age.

Guess I will junp back in here, The Kelly had a lot of unusual feature in addition to the "no freeboard" theree was the "transom" type windows, and the crew quarters were elevated several feet I guess to allow the engine drive shaft direct access to the stern gearbox. With no AC back then and no doubt a oil fired galley range it must have made for some hot times during the summer months.

Mr. Ray, I am enjoying all the posts about the Hines boats. As I mentioned in my last post, I remember a pilot on the Producers who wore no jacket or outer shirt, even in very cold weather. He was always wearing a t-shirt when I saw him, when the temps. were in the teens and twenties. My father knew him well, but I don't remember his name. Could this have been your father?