'Landings' for DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN.

That's interesting as to how the term 'truck farming' originated. I never would have guessed that! I wonder why no 'mud clerks' - maybe no muddy landings in California, or not civilized enough a term??? I've attached one of my C.T. Co. brochures, not sure which year, but it gives the tonnage amounts for 1927 on the Sacramento and San Joaquin Rivers, so its obviously 1928 or later. I don't know if the time table is legible in these attachments, but it states for both the DQ and DK: leave San Francisco 6:30PM arrive Sacramento 5:30AM; leave Sacramento 6:30 PM arrive San Francisco 5:30AM No Stops En Route. I always thought these were 'express' non-stop trips, but you listed several stops. Could those have been for one of the other boats, the Pride of the River or the Isleton? The DQ/DK fare was $1.80 one way, or $3 round trip. In today's money that would be $21.23 and $35.39 - but of course that didn't include luxurious bathrobes! If you can make out the brochure pictures, they are from top left clockwise: Observation Room on Boat Deck(Texas Lounge), the DK nearing Sacramento, suite with double bed and shower, twin beds and bath, a nook in the Social Hall on Saloon Deck(note the tapestry)now the stern of the Betty Blake Lounge, looking into Dining Room(forward half of BB Lounge), and Main Lobby on Saloon Deck(Gift Shop/Pursers Office)

Judy,

Thanks for your posts on this! Hard to make out, but on the brochure it does list the PRIDE OF THE RIVER and ISLETON as making several stops , and I can make out ..."and way landings." on the brochure. I had always been under the same impression as you, that the KING and QUEEN were the "express" boats, with the idea being to lure folks back to the river by giving them more luxury and avoiding the multiple stops with their attendant longer run times.

Question: would that fare have included meals and room, or was that just the "deck passage" fare? Surely they could not charge the same for a room with no bath as one of the better, larger rooms with one?

Judy, thanks for sharing, incredible stuff.

Lower right of your brochure, is that the skylight? Was it really barrel shaped as it appears to me? Does anybody know what it looked like, was it a "picture" or the like? Does anybody know what happened to it? A Dravo removal?

Thanks in advance,
Bruno

Hi, Bruno. Yes, the skylights were removed at Dravo. They were barrel-shaped, and had tapestries at the ends. There is a good picture of them prior to their removal in Fred Way's "The Saga of the Delta Queen". On the DQ in the Aft Cabin/Betty Blake Lounge, you can see where thay were in the overhead.

I presume the former skylight area is where the bathrooms for the Texas deck staterooms are now. This particular brochure doesn't give different prices for rooms. Here's what the Time Table page states: leave San Francisco 6:30PM arrive Sacramento 5:30AM; leave Sacramento 6:30PM, arrive San Francisco 5:30AM.
DINING ROOM SERVICE Table d'hote and a'la Carte Dinner 6:30 to 8:30PM Breakfast 6 to 9AM.
Staterooms are air cooled in summer and warmed in winter. Have Hot and Cold running water. Suites of two and Three Rooms wiht Bath or Shower Attractive for Automobile Parties.
These steamers connect at Sacramento with Sacramenton-Northern Railway for: Marysville, Yuba City, Oroville, Chico, Colusa, Woodland and Way Stations. Also connect with Auto Stage LInes for Grass Valley, Nevada City, Lake Tahoe resorts.
Passenger Steamers Pride of the River and Isleton San Francisco - Sacramento and Rio Vista, Isleton, Ryde, Walnut Grove, Courtland and Way Landings. Leave San Francisco 6 PM arrive Sacramento 7AM; leave Sacramento 5PM, arrive San Francisco 6 AM.
So I think Bob is right - the Pride and Isleton made stops and the DK and DQ were express. The DK/DQ trip is 11 hours and the others 13 hours. Apparently the fare per person was the same regardless of the room type, but they got more money for the ones with baths because those were for 'automobile parties', ie. several people, I guess??? I'll see if I can find clearer pix of the old interior..

pix of DQ interior California

Well, that was unusually easy to find for a change. The first pix shows the forward tapestry. This would be midship, by the puzzle table now, rooms 109 110 or so offhand. The second pix is of course the Grand Staircase, but note the wooden bulkhead and leaded glass doors forward of the Staircase. This forward part of the now Forward Cabin Lounge was the Gentlemen's Smoking Lounge. When you're aboard, go to the port side about 20 feet forward of the Purser's Office. Look up at the ceiling and you'll see a horseshoe-shaped beam. This was where the standing bar was located. Dick Simonton pointed that out to me on the 1976 organ society trip. The third pix is looking forward from the front end of the now BB Lounge. This was the Dining Room in California. The photographer is by room 104 looking forward and to the port side. The sun's rays kind of blot out the Purser's Office, which is what it was back then too. Today's Gift Shop was the Barber Shop in the '20s. I'm looking at that wonderful deck plan on pp. 26-27 of 'Saga' right now, and that horseshoe-shaped bar shows up.

Steamboating colleagues:
First, thanks to Judy for posting the great period folders from the C.T. Co. That's a skill I've not yet bothered to fiddle with.

You all are on the money asking about the boats being 'Express service.' There were scheduled stops, as mentioned, but within a few years and by on/around 1930 not only had hours for sailing changed but way stops were dropped. Rio Vista was one that remained on schedules year after year. One ominous cloud on the steamboat horizon on the Sacramento was the increasing use of the rail service along the river in addition to highways. At times U.S. Mail contract bags, officers, crew and passenger were forced to either meet or leave the boats by rail or car along the way. Stan Garvey and John Burns talked of the incident with a legislator at the state house in Sacramento aboard one of the QUEENS with his cronies. He was needed for an emergency vote and a car was sent to rouse him up and get him off the boat and back for a tight political decision.

The famed stained glass domes on both boats are interesting. Dick Rutter out in California informed me some years ago that one of the domes was removed at Antioch and has been standing duty as a 'hot house' for vegetables by an out building on private property. The one from the QUEEN removed at DRAVO is rumored to be in good condition in private hands just across from Cincinnati in northern Kentucky.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Room prices

On that deck plan, which is from the very beginning, so maybe by 1928 they changed the price scales, but it states:
Texas Deck (now Sun) double bed $2.50; double bed and bath $4.00; twin beds and bath $5.00; two larger rooms with double bed and bath $5.00
Observation(Boat){now Texas} Deck double bed $2.00; double bed and shower $3.00; twin beds and shower $4.00; two larger rooms with double bed and shower $4.00
Saloon (now Cabin) Deck upper and lower berth $1.00; inside rooms lower double and upper single $1.00;
Lower (Main) Deck 42 single berths (men only) 50 cents

Thanks for clearing that up, Judy. Now, as to the leaded glass door leading to the men's smoking lounge: I always believed this door had later been put on the Gift Shop. I cannot recall just exactly how it is now, but I know the Gift Shop has been enlarged since I worked on the boat (until 1980). The above-mentioned door (or one just like it) used to be on the aft end, inboard side of the Gift Shop. Is this still there? Was this door a duplicate (twin) of the one to the smoking lounge, the Barber Shop having its own glassed door, or was this one put in the Gift Shop after she was on the Mississippi system?

Orleans Room

One final posting for this evening: here are 3 shots of the Orleans Room. The first was taken in 1947 when Tom Greene brought the DQ to Dravo. This was the auto storage area. I wonder where those 42 berths for men were, probably where today's galley is???? Number two is early Greene Line and its BINGO time! Can anyone tell who the caller is? Number three is dressed up for dinner. Is that the piano about which we had quite a thread a while back???

Hi, Judy & Bob:
Judy, thanks for the photos posted above and keep em' coming. The 'Mens Quarters' mentioned was that unusual little deck housing on the bow we talked about back a while. In looking at the above photo you wonder how/if they ever got the anticipated '55 autos' on the freight deck? May have but DENNY BROS., as mentioned, questioned this on the initial design. Another variation was cargo capacity. C.T. Co. had the QUEENS rated--and carried--600 to 800 tons + on each boat. DENNY BROS. and records in Great Britain indicate only 400 tons each. Figures and statistics varied from what was on paper to what ended up in iron, wood and steel.

A long time ago we discussed here the 'load lines' marked in the wood on the cargo deck that later became the 'Orleans Room.' For a number of years on the deck you could still see the etched line marks indicating center of load, sides, bow and stern. Reminded me of being done with a router in the wood. I don't know if those marks are still visible or have been removed, sanded down etc. Who out there knows and remembers?

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

This is the Mens' Quarters right? The first one is the DQ, second the DK. I think the Navy left that on during WWII, didn't they?

Hi, Judy:
Good question about the structure on the DQ bow known as the 'Mens' Quarters.' I ran post haste and pulled down Fred Way's 'SAGA OF THE DELTA QUEEN.' Most pictures show the boat from the stern. Those quarters were retained during W.W.II. Can't tell after the boat was boxed up for delivery. Then I looked on Pg. 112 of SAGA... and it appears the structure was torn off already before the boat reached DRAVO. Possibly done either before boxing up or while getting prepared in New Orleans for the trip up. [?] Other dark photos taken at FULTON SHIP YARD shows a lot of debris and junk lying in piles that 'could' have been removed from the boat. I'll ask Dick Prater as he may recall. Gordon Greene II might remember as he was down on the boat when it arrived with his parents.

The FORT SUTTER of the C.T. Co. also had a similar structure on the bow. That lower housing in the old plans indicates, "42 single berths--men only--50 cents." Also looks like stairs going dow to a lower bow compartment underneath. Communal toilet and "wash facility" indicated. Must have been pretty Spartan to say the least. No way they'd get away with that today.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Yeah, it looks like its gone on p. 108 too. But if you look at the double pager 82-83, the aerial shot of her royal rump in the mud, it looks like they boxed the bow up over that thing. And for those unaware of Saga, it is THE source for inside info on the DQ becoming a Mississippi River System boat. It is Saga of the Delta Queen by Capt. Fred Way. Long out of print, but often on Ebay and other places. My original copy's binding broke so I have loose pages everywhere. But I've bought a couple more over the years. Stan Garvey's King and Queen of the River is the definitive volume for her California days, and of course Long Live the Delta Queen by Letha Greene is the definitive tome of trials and tribulations of an owner. If you are a DQ fan, these three are a must for your library.

Judy Patsch;3445 wrote: One final posting for this evening: here are 3 shots of the Orleans Room. The first was taken in 1947 when Tom Greene brought the DQ to Dravo. This was the auto storage area. I wonder where those 42 berths for men were, probably where today's galley is???? Number two is early Greene Line and its BINGO time! Can anyone tell who the caller is? Number three is dressed up for dinner. Is that the piano about which we had quite a thread a while back???

It's too bad the DQ isn't like that today...a simpler return to it's roots...

Dale and Judy,

Thanks for the DQ history information. For those of you that read these posts or have been unlucky enough to here me ramble on end, face to face, gawd I love this "where was she years ago" stuff...I've read all three of the books mentioned, honestly I didn't remember the skylight photo in Capt. Way's book.

Thanks to both of you, the pictures and info are wonderful, a little cheer me up despite the snow that is falling outside. It's on my list to meet you two some day...

Bruno

I don't want to bore and/or overwhelm people with my pictures, but I figure if you're not interested, you don't have to look... I've got so much stuff here I don't have a clue what I've got, but I do enjoy sharing it with other boat people. You know we've had many a discussion on the board about the black hole that museums and libraries can become when one donates a collection thereto, so I think this internet is a wonderful way to share these things. Even though I've paid for many of these pix, I don't mind people capturing them for themselves...the more out there, the better chance that this history will get preserved. I was so frustrated before I learned how to post pix, because I didn't want to bother Franz with having to post them for me. And Bruno, you have to realize that both Dale and I are retired teachers, so neither of us is a shy violet when it comes to imparting information! If you've ever got a topic for which you want some pictures or info, let us know. And while Keith is not a 'retired' teacher, but rather a 'former' teacher, he obviously is benevolent in sharing his vast knowledge with us too. Its kind of embarassing to note the number of postings one has made, but that's what happens when you're retired and living through a midwestern winter!!!!

When you've read Saga 50 or 60 times, you'll remember the skylight photo, and most anything else in the book! I always took it on board on my trips to show people the original deckplans and compare them to the current layouts. On my first trip in '73 there were public bathrooms on the Sundeck. On my second trip in '74, I was in room 314, which seemed smaller than the other rooms in that class. Got Saga out, and sure enough, 314 had been the Gents Toilet up until '74!!!!

Judy, I am many things, but tech-savvy is not one of them. I have resorted to sending Franz pictures, too, not being able to figure out how to resize photos. I have a few that would fit that musical memories thread, including one of Vic Tooker, and I think Terry Severens--I'll send 'em to you, if you'll email me--maybe you can send me v-e-r-y simple instructions for resizing, too! I am enjoying all these memories and photos--but my printer is wearing out!!

Steamboating colleagues:
Judy is on the money Re: the excellent books on steamboating from the pens of Fred Way, Stan Garvey, Letha Greene, Alan Bates and Barbara Huffman...in addition to many others over the years. As we've said before, 'They were there then and we're all here now.' Garvey's 2nd edition of KING & QUEEN of the River' contains additional information and insights in side bars and framed blocks on pages not in the 1st printing. Stan, according to his Christmas card, is doing fine out in Menlo Park, Calif.
Another out-of-print monograph you could possibly look for in antique book stores or E=Bay was written in 1944 by Jerry MacMullen, Stanford University Press, titled 'Paddle-Wheel Days in California' of some 157 Pgs. Stan Garvey and John Burns, son of old Jim who built the DK/DQ, handed me a copy when they were in Cincinnati in 1990 to ride the DELTA QUEEN and attend S&D of Pioneer Rivermen in Marietta. It was memorable as John and Fred Way hadn't met since 1947 when John drove his dad Jim up to see the QUEEN being 'boxed up' at Antioch, Calif. Old Jim had a number of ideas to help in the project and memories to share with Fred and the crew at the yards. As Fred wrote in 'SAGA OF THE DELTA QUEEN,' crew and workers lined up to shake the hand of a man many only knew from stories and legends on the Sacramento. Alas, old Jim never was able to accept Capt. Tom Greene's invitation to ride the DQ out of Cincinnati after her renovation at DRAVO. Jim had cut his teeth in iron-hull ship building and engineering as a young apprentice out of Ireland at DENNY BROS. on the Clyde in Scotland. That was the connection for the C.T. Co. to DENNY. *More on that in time if people are interested.

Old Jim, according to son John, had a 'gimpy' leg and as a young man John said, "I was my dad's legs on the project building the boats running errands and handling other matters." The C.T. Co. boats out there were oil fired going way back. John was a licensed steamboat fireman and, at times, worked on various boats for the company. In later years he went into engineering founding his own company in Oalkand, Calif. working on deep sea engines with a technique to re-work engines and cylinders--many on then conventional Navy ships and submarines. He was careful with his health and for years an amateur prize fighter. As posted several years ago here, John said that when the C.T. Co. paid the monthly oil fuel bills, "The local refinery declared a stock dividend." Anyway, for what it's worth, an interesting man in his own right.
He was moderate with a before dinner cocktail here at the house and shunned any ice. He'd put his finger on the glass where to fill and then add tap water. "Ice in a drink in a hotel or restaurant doesn't give full value for the money," he'd joke. We gave him free reign of the laundry room here to wash his clothes from traveling. He also shunned using hot water and never believed in electric or gas dryer as, "It isn't economical." That was the Scotch-Irish frugality and his father was the same. Old Jim and John also shunned the rich foods on the C.T.CO. boats and ate carefully. John kept a box of fresh fruits/vegetables under his bunk on the boats and when off duty had a strict physical exercise program.

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Hello Dale and Judy,

I believe the structure on the bow was called the Deck House and used for storage of deck materials, like lines, paint, and the like. 2 of her life boats were stored on davits on te roof of the structure. It also housed the stairs (2 sets one port one stb'd) to the Men's Quarters below, just ahead of the first collision bulkhead (look in "Saga" pg 26/27 and you will see in the "cabin" layout the portholes in her hull show clearly in the layout.). This area today is shared by the bow thruster and deck storage for our lines, shackles, work vests, and things of this nature.

Looking at "Saga" I am seeing on pg 56 bottom right the Deck House is clearly removed. So one has to assume the removal was done at Fulton's Yard and not in NOLA or anywhere over here on the Ohio and Mississippi System. One has to also wonder why the paddlewheel cover was not removed at Fultons since it had no purpose on the trip over to the Mississippi River System.

Here are a couple of questions I have always wanted to get an answer to. We all know the Main Deck was a cargo area. The steel bulkheads near the Engine Room were to preclude entrance of unwanted automobiles. However, was the metal sound absorbing ceiling which shows in the Greene Line 1940's pictures always there? On pg 120 in "Saga" you can see what appear to be stringers to hold it up in place. The lumber in that picture looks aged enough to have been original. So am I to assume the ceiling was removed for the installation of recessed lighting (notice there are no electrical lines or conduits in place in the aforementioned picture, which leads me to believe they were re-wiring the room at that time which would validate my question about the removal of the ceiling)?

Also the Mid-Ship loading doors in the California days. Were these used for cargo? In "King and Queen of the River" we see a car being off loaded from the DELTA KING clearly from the bow. Stan Garvey also states the elevators for this type of operation were near the bow area. Did they move the boat up or down the landing to access the elevators for these mid-ship doors?

Does anyone have a picture out there of the Cargo Deck in the California days? How about the Smoking Room on the Saloon Deck from the same era?

~Travis~

Mary, this new board system doesn't allow you to click on the name and send an email, so please email me at: [email protected] and I'll tell you how Franz walked me through Picasa 2 to post pix. It isn't hard, once you've done it, but I really need somebody sitting next to me to take me step by step.

Hi, Travis & steamboating colleagues:
Good questions on your part and I don't know all the answers. Judy's photo of the cargo deck shows clearly the fore/aft steel beam system with rivets [Termed the 'DENNY beam' under their manufacture.] DENNY BROS. were contracted to do the hull components up to the overhead of the cargo deck and not higher. Shipping manifests from the yards to C.T.Co. here reads:
* * * * * * * *
*"Beams, girders, channels and tees, columns and posts [*See Judy's photo], deck and bulb beams and building forms fabricated for hull construction."
* * * * * * * *

The forward deck housing was, indeed, constructed for berths, toilet facilities on the deck with stairs leading to a lower berthing compartment according to the plans in Fred's SAGA... and the specification plans from DENNY now in the Maritime Museum, Greenwich, England.

The port holes, as discussed some time back on this web, are interesting. Note the 16 ports--8 port and 8 starboard--for lower berthing ventilation and some light. DENNY'S contract manifest lists for the KING/QUEEN cases packed with a total of 40 "Brass ports" with bolts/grimmets. A number on this web recall early on the survival of some of these ports. When removed over the years a few of them found 'homes' with former crew, officers etc. as nifty souvenirs.

Autos/freight were, as you say, taken off/on via the famed C.T.Co. elevator. The sliding freight doors were used in other situations as the boats landed ocean liner style against piers and docks. I still have to wonder if they were able to take aboard '55' autos in a pinch at one time? The British classified vessels differently than here if built in their yards. The British notation on the boats/construction by number and category simply lists the DELTA KING/DELTA QUEEN as "Ferryboats." [*This in 1920s registration records and long before W.W. II].

Cheers,
R. Dale Flick

Fascinating questions! I'd like to posit on three things. First, I also wonder why they left the paddlewheel housing on in California, especially since the wooden parts of the wheel were removed. I do recall in SAGA that an insurance man said the shaft could stay in place in its bearings on the fantail. So, if the arms, buckets, etc. were removed from the wheel, WHY would they do that within the confines of that cover, rather than just removing it? I wish I had my copy of SAGA here with me to reference all the pages/photos y'all are listing.

Second, Dale questions whether 55 cars could have been put aboard. It does seem to be a large number, but remember we are probably talking Model "A"'s or similar cars, are we not? I'm not an antique car guy, but I would bet a person bent on maximizing use of deck space could squeeze quite a few more cars on there than you might first think! Anyone know how big the average 1926 cars might have been?

Third, as to the "ferryboat" classification, I seem to remember the NATCHEZ is/was classed as a "ferryboat" for either ABS or MARAD financing purposes. Judy or Alan, is this right?