Steam Engine & Equipment

be more specific. Describe the authentic items. What size engines does the boat have now? (Diameter and stroke)

Two Mat(t)hews

You need to get with the other Matthew on the board, Matt Bubba Dow. His company has more steam machinery stashed than any other I would bet. Known entities include the engines from the MISSISSIPPI III and the GEN. JOHN NEWTON, which would be too big for your boat, but who knows what else lurks in the storage sheds in New Orleans or Lake George????
[email protected] is his address...

Judy Patsch;16456 wrote: You need to get with the other Matthew on the board, Matt Bubba Dow. His company has more steam machinery stashed than any other I would bet. Known entities include the engines from the MISSISSIPPI III and the GEN. JOHN NEWTON, which would be too big for your boat, but who knows what else lurks in the storage sheds in New Orleans or Lake George????
[email protected] is his address...

Thank-you Judy! Yes I went out and visited Lake George last season, I never met Matt however, I met with Mr. Dow there, he gave me more information in the hour I spent talking with him then from months of research at historical centers!

MATT;;
You still need a Steam CaLLiope on that boat ,,?!?!
Best Wishes and Welcome to the board ,,....

DAVE,,,.....

Dave Morecraft;16460 wrote: MATT;;
You still need a Steam CaLLiope on that boat ,,?!?!
Best Wishes and Welcome to the board ,,....

DAVE,,,.....

Great to hear from you Dave! I'm sorry you couldn't make it out with us last summer when the group made the trip onboard, I was looking forward to talking to you about your calliopes! Hopefully down the road you'll be able to make a trip with the group, and we can figure some more out about getting one back onboard!

Thanks Matt;;
would enjoy that very much,, I need a SteamBoat fix about now ,,..LOL

Here is a U tube vid i posted ,,enjoy ,,...

YouTube - Steam CaLLiope at Tall Stacks1992 ,"Herbie Head"

Dave,,,....

Lexie Palmore;16454 wrote: be more specific. Describe the authentic items. What size engines does the boat have now? (Diameter and stroke)

Lexie, I'm at school now so I'm not 100% positive on the engines, however my notes I have say they have an 8" Bore & 28" Stroke. I talked to Captain Bates, about when he designed the vessel and he said they were built by a man in Fulton, Illinois, named Harry McBride. He also gave me the fun fact of back then the chief engineer on the Belle of Louisville saw the engines and said "Now those are the right-sized engines. You can set 'em on a bench to repair 'em."

I have attached a photo of the engines that I had saved on my computer, rest assured however this isn't anything what the engines look like now, the photo was from when I first walked onto the vessel when they were planning to send her to scrap pile! Today the engine room and engines are shined up, on full display, as any of the folks who came out last season can attest to.

is that a Stephenson valve train linkage I see?

I believe that would be a Stephenson Valve "Marine" Linkage 😉 haha

Mathew: You do not say what boiler you have/had and the psi carried and its rating in pounds per hour of steam. You want to upgrade the power of her engines and that can sometimes be pretty simply done by increasing the pressure and quantity of the steam supplied within the limits of the engine of course. I say, pretty simply, if you have no boiler now, get one that has more pressure and pounds of steam per hour output. And, yes, it will use more fuel per hour but you might get far more speed per hour to balance out. You don't say why you desire/need more power...to make progress against the current perhaps, but you are not likely to set any speed records so why worry about it? It might be as simple as more fuel burned (heat release) in the boiler you might now have. You need a knowing steam engineer to look over your rig and make recommendations lest you end up with new wine on old bottles! Judy is sending you in the right direction for parts and pieces. Good Luck! Cap'n Walnut.

Good idea. Those engines might need some tuning, new rings, etc., but I bet they willl be sufficient with an adequate boiler. Our engines are a mere 4" x 16", which will not do the Mississippi River, but excursions on calm water, no problem, and they're ok with less than 20mph wind, more than that would give anyone fits. Also, put some insulation on those cylinders, steam lines, anything that gets hot. It makes a difference.

Mathew, Lexie is right on...those cylinders and steam lines could use some insulation. Lack of insulation will lower the steam temperature and thus the pressure if running at saturation. A bit of superheat will help keep the pressure up but too much will cause lube problems in the cylinders. A traditional lagging material for the cylinders was wood and it looks good too. I see a lube pump on the valve box and that is good. You are probably not running condensing but that too would, alone, raise your mean effective steam pressure at least ten psi on the pistons without changing anything else. But then you have to have an oil separator unless you are using other water for makeup. Space considerations may take precedent because condensers take up room on board. Lexie will tell you too that riders like to hear that gentle chuff-chuff of non-condensing engines. Lots of things to think about and trade-offs involved. Cap'n Walnut.

Hello all, Yeah those lines are all insulated now, all the way back to the boiler, as I said that picture was from 2 years ago when I first purchased the vessel, and I don't have any new ones unfortunately on my computer. You are right Cap'n Walnut about the system being non-condensing, I wouldn't ever want to loose the sound of the steam exhausting.

Also the notes on the boiler, the boiler onboard is a Johnston 218, 100HP, 3 Pass, Fire-tube. When I bought the vessel we replaced all 128 tubes inside of her, and as of last year she was running between 84-86 percent efficiency. The boiler max operating pressure is 250lbs, however we normally run at 150lbs where we burn around 4-6 gph of No.2 fuel oil. We have more steam then we know what to do with, the boiler cycles on for about 10 minutes and off for around 25 minutes when we are our daily excursions.

Since I've owen the vessel I've never actually taken apart the main cylinders, I've taken the top off the steam chest with the slider and it was perfectly clean with no buildup or rubbing wear. If I was to take about the main cylinder what is there to replace or repair in there to make it run faster?

Mathew,
Everything is a trade-off. Stroke of the engine is limited by the crank pin offest, which is limited by the water line to crankshaft distance (you really don't want to dip your bearings in the water each revolution--although some might argue that that would keep the bearings cool). Then there is the practicality of distance of stroke. Valve timing gets in here now too. Diameter of wheel, number of paddles, size of wheelshaft. . . I think you might get my drift. Wheelshaft too small=cracked shaft. bearings too small=overheated, failing. Hull/engine bed not strong enough. the whole thing will rack as it goes around under power. Lotsa stuff here to consider! Seems the DQ designers musta got it right, as she ran for over 80 years, and can still run if'n a little law could get updated.
Me? I just overbuild everything--I could tell you a story about a box kite that never made it up in the air! As I age, I am finding out that "build it for stout" is sometimes not best! 🙂
S'
David D.

With "new" tubes and a 250 psi rating, the first thing I'd try is raising the pressure to say 175...note the effect...it'll burn more fuel at the same throttle setting because it'll push more steam through the engine. Whether the resulting fuel usage meets your approval along with the increased speed is for you to decide. Base upon that, I might raise the pressure some more until I got the balance I wanted. That is a good-looking boiler and no toy. Looks like a return flue type with the breaching on the firing end. Hope that you have a good steam man aboard! Cap'n Walnut.

All that and a little tweaking on the point of cutoff, eh, Cap'n Walnut?

Chautaqua Belle Engine Faults

We rode the Chautaqua Belle last summer, and I have enough steam knowledge to be dangerous. Before getting to the engines, I have to comment that the diesel gen-set really ruined our trip. It was difficult for my companions to perceive any difference obtained by steam power with that vibration and roar pervading the boat. My understanding is that electric power is needed for the boiler controls, the bow thruster, and food service. A reconstruction of these items to reduce or eliminate electric power consumption, thus eliminating the gen-set, would make the trip much more pleasurable. I have ridden a number of steamers with traditional mechanicals, and the silent glide of steam power is a unique experience.

My rough opinion is that the engines are undersized and have inadequate valve gear. I noted sluggish response to the throttle, especially going astern. The engine has a slide valve and a straight link motion driven from a tumbler (which is an eccentric receiving its rotary motion from a pin midway on the pitman). This gives very poor valve events, and I do not believe it provides expansive working. Expansive working is when the steam is shut off partway through the piston stroke to allow the steam to continue expanding. I suspect the slide valve is unbalanced, which leads to much wear on the valve gear and robs the engine of power.

The boat really needs an engine such as on the Belle of Louisville or on the Disney boats. These engines have lifting valves similar to internal combustion engine valves, and a valve gear taking exhaust and main steam motion from the eccentric, and cutoff or expansion trigger motion from the crosshead. The valves offer less friction and resistance to movement. The valve gear offers two modes of operation, "full" gear with steam at full stroke, for high power needs, and "cutoff" where the steam stops at partial stroke, for general cruising.

Matt,

The Chautauque Belle's original pilothwheel found its way to Florida several years ago, to the home of Capt Dick Irwin (formerly of Madison, IN). Capt. Irwin and Jim Webster were good friends. The pilotwheel was the original from circa 1975, and is about 6' in diameter. The wheel was removed in 1978 or '79 and given to Jim Webster. Jim had it for many years until he gave it to Capt. Irwin.

Capt. Irwin came to my landing to see the BARBARA H in '05, and he mentioned the pilotwheel. Since we are a non-profit, he offered to donate it to us. Knowing the Chautauque Belle had some connections in Louisville (designed by Alan Bates), I suggested that maybe the folks with the Belle of Louisville would have a place to give the wheel more visibility. So I coordinated the effort between Capt's Kevin Mullen and Dick Irwin to get the pilotwheel to Louisville. This was completed by January 2006.

The pilotwheel was hung on the wall in the Master's office at the Belle of Louisville's office. I presume it is still there.

-Steve

Steven Harrod;16499 wrote: We rode the Chautaqua Belle last summer, and I have enough steam knowledge to be dangerous. Before getting to the engines, I have to comment that the diesel gen-set really ruined our trip. It was difficult for my companions to perceive any difference obtained by steam power with that vibration and roar pervading the boat. My understanding is that electric power is needed for the boiler controls, the bow thruster, and food service. A reconstruction of these items to reduce or eliminate electric power consumption, thus eliminating the gen-set, would make the trip much more pleasurable. I have ridden a number of steamers with traditional mechanicals, and the silent glide of steam power is a unique experience.

My rough opinion is that the engines are undersized and have inadequate valve gear. I noted sluggish response to the throttle, especially going astern. The engine has a slide valve and a straight link motion driven from a tumbler (which is an eccentric receiving its rotary motion from a pin midway on the pitman). This gives very poor valve events, and I do not believe it provides expansive working. Expansive working is when the steam is shut off partway through the piston stroke to allow the steam to continue expanding. I suspect the slide valve is unbalanced, which leads to much wear on the valve gear and robs the engine of power.

The boat really needs an engine such as on the Belle of Louisville or on the Disney boats. These engines have lifting valves similar to internal combustion engine valves, and a valve gear taking exhaust and main steam motion from the eccentric, and cutoff or expansion trigger motion from the crosshead. The valves offer less friction and resistance to movement. The valve gear offers two modes of operation, "full" gear with steam at full stroke, for high power needs, and "cutoff" where the steam stops at partial stroke, for general cruising.

Steve, I'm very sorry to hear you didn't enjoy your time onboard, it upsets me whenever there is a problem. I understand completely about the generator, I'm sure you noticed also in the engine room the 60HP Troy Skinner Vertical steam engine sitting idol, that unit produces about 30KW of power, however it changes our fuel consumption of 4-8 GPH total to around 25-30 GPH total. When Alan Bates designed the vessel he joked of the generator being so much larger then the actual engines that pushed the vessel along. I truly wish we didn't have to use the diesel generator however, there are not other options, I don't know if I gave the narration onboard but I'm sure you heard of how the Belle was weeks away from being cut up while onboard; I restored then entire vessel before I even knew if I was the owner, because in the event the sale wasn't approved (legal matters going from non-for-profit to a for profit business) I wanted the vessel to continue to run; and if having to run the diesel generator ensures the Chautauqua Belle to stay on Chautauqua Lake, stay steam power, and remain an icon of history, then a diesel generator it is. I can say describe in words how much I love steamboats, and I truly hope that you understand I didn't restore the vessel to make a quick profit, I restored it so that the families around the area can see, hear, and experience it; my earliest childhood memories were running down to the water because I heard the gentle puffing of the engines, seeing the Belle come around the bend and listening to the whistle echo as I ran back up to the house to tell anyone I could find that the Chautauqua Belle was going past....

I greatly appreciate your advice on the steam engines, and any further information on how I could solve the gearing would be more then appreciated.

It won't be the first time I've said it, I'm 20 years old, two days over 18 when I started this endeavor and I need the help from those that have the same passion and love that I do; your support and guidance is what keeps me & the Chautauqua Belle steaming, Thank you

Electrical Reduction Options

Here are my armchair schemes to eliminate the diesel generator:

1) Fix the paddlewheel engines so the boat is fully powered, and eliminate the bow thruster. Not an equal trade in manueverability, but true to the goal of an authentic steamboat.

2) Revise the boiler to eliminate or reduce electrical demands. This is a challenge and probably not a catalog solution. A traditional boiler would have steam pumps and a steam atomizing burner, but I realize the C'Belle eliminates one paid position due to boiler automation. I wonder if a remote water level gauge (commercial, electric), pressure, and temperature gauges in the engine room, and controls for pumps and burner in the engine room, would satisfy safety and allow one person operation? A number of small steamers operate with a single engineer/fireman, such as the Sabino in Mystic, Connecticut.

There is not a lot of fiddling with the controls necessary for an engine/boiler combination such as this. As noted, the burner on the current boiler cycles on and off frequently, more off than on. The automated controls are not able to carefully adjust the burner to match steam consumption. Manual controls would allow the engineer to adjust the flame to meet steam demands, and pretty much leave the boiler alone. The large size of the boiler should minimize steam pressure fluctuations from engine stops and heavy power demands during docking and turning. I don't think I have ever seen the fireman on the Belle of Louisville get out of his chair during a cruise.

3) Revise food service with high efficiency, 24 volt refrigeration, or possibly propane refrigeration. Reduce the volume of onboard refrigeration, i.e. store inventory on shore, not on the boat. Make ice on shore, not on the boat.

##

I suspect the gen-set is sized to meet peak electrical demand (make ice, feed boiler, thrust bow). This results in even more noise and vibration. If electrical needs can be changed to 24 volt, then peak needs can be served with a bank of batteries, and a smaller gen-set can support average demand plus charge the batteries. Perhaps even a solar panel on the roof?

I hope the gen-set can be eliminated, and this issue is considered by future boat builders. There is a huge difference in the voyage experience on steam-only vessels such as the Graceful Ghost, Sabino, or Segwun, and various other boats that have a diesel engine roaring away.

Hello Steve,

thanks for the quick response.

If we were to get new engines it still leaves us with very little control of the vessel, and with a tight schedule, swimming areas within 10 yards of one of our lands it's just asking for trouble. Being a flat bottom and a large wind surface area it becomes extremely dangerous operating her; as soon as she is below 2MPH there is no control of the vessel; any large steamboat from has a bow thruster and/or stern thruster due to this from what I've researched. The bow thruster system runs off a battery array system, it only charges at night when we are on shore power.

As far as the other recommendations, they are all great however they aren't practical because of fuel costs, safety, and the already high operating costs of operation the vessel. We have a Union Steam Pump for boiler feed water, however again fuel consumption goes up drastically. It's so easy to just turn on these systems, or talk about running on just steam, but until you are really there adding up the numbers at the end of the day, last summer I saved just over $38,000 in fuel consumption by using the generator.

There's a reason why if you look at any of the major non-condensing steamboats running today, they all have diesel generators providing power.

Tom Schiffer;16497 wrote: With "new" tubes and a 250 psi rating, the first thing I'd try is raising the pressure to say 175...note the effect...it'll burn more fuel at the same throttle setting because it'll push more steam through the engine. Whether the resulting fuel usage meets your approval along with the increased speed is for you to decide. Base upon that, I might raise the pressure some more until I got the balance I wanted. That is a good-looking boiler and no toy. Looks like a return flue type with the breaching on the firing end. Hope that you have a good steam man aboard! Cap'n Walnut.

Thanks Captain, indeed we have brought her up to full pressure and her paddlewheel increase to around 18 revs a min or so, my favorite thing about bringing the pressure up of course is it increases the whistle range by 2 miles!

Mathew: No one can tell you what to do (except mebbe the coasties) but I cannot believe you need that much power. Now, I understand the need for a tight schedule and the wind does not always care what you want to do. But I have a simple on/off boiler management burner on my little 20' steamer...when the steam pressure drops below the set point, the burner starts; rises to set point, shuts off. It is VERY reliable. My little one runs on a small 12 volt battery and I can run all week on one charge of the garden tractor battery. You probably use electricity to run the oil burner whereas I burn propane and that uses no current but as Steve points out, you could use steam atomization; elec only for startup. I still have not heard from you about my recommendation to raise steam pressure to get better power and that the trade-off in fuel is too high. My guess is that you could get by on a much smaller generator set that is much quieter if you must have on-board power. I agree that most if not all steamers extant today have gen sets but they are large enough to isolate the noise in a remote area of the boat. Steve is quite correct that a noisy gen set will set a steamer lover's teeth on edge. Your 30 KW would run all of my house, all of my machine tools on Christmas eve with all of the kids at home with power to spare! The 30 KW would likely power your paddle wheel too, so what's the point of having steam at all? Cap'n Walnut.

Every four or five years we have replaced piston rings. If your exhaust is continuous or near continuous, that is a good indicator that rings are worn and letting steam get by them. Our rings are a composite material that we get from an oilfield supplier. It is a bear of a job to do, though.