Steam Engine & Equipment

Captain Walnut, unfortunately under NYS law we aren't allowed to have propane onboard. your suggestion with the increase in steam pressure does increase our speed we have experimented around with it; normally when we are looking for the speed is when we are making our longer runs, not on our normal schedule.

The 30KW generator is the steam generator we have onboard, our diesel generator is 50KW at 200AMPs, we use about 1/5th of it's power. We just purchased the new unit and to tell you the truth it's rated at the same decimal level as a commercial washing machine. The old Hercules diesel generator that was onboard would of rattled your teeth out and could be heard across the lake; the reason for purchasing the larger generator is that the price difference was minimal for a larger unit, the fuel consumption was the same, and the decimal rating was identical. We plan on an extensive renovation of the vessel down the road including lengthening and widening, and with that in mind we estimated our power consumption would be larger adding in more hospitality services for the passengers. The generator that is onboard right now is fully housed in a sound proofing material, and you can easily stand next to it and have a conversation in normal tone.

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Lexie,

Indeed there is a near continuous flow out of the exhaust, you have really sparked my mind, and I think that the piston rings do need to be replaced, I'll be taking the engines apart as soon as I can Thank you!

Mat, where does the generator exhaust go? Up one of the stacks, or out a dedicated exhaust thru the hull? On the JULIA BELLE SWAIN, they have a barely-noticeable diesel generator that exhausts up the stack. In addition to getting the diesel exhaust away from pax, the noise is further dampened. A thought for future lay-up and/or renovation projects if not already this way!

Bob Reynolds;16531 wrote: Mat, where does the generator exhaust go? Up one of the stacks, or out a dedicated exhaust thru the hull? On the JULIA BELLE SWAIN, they have a barely-noticeable diesel generator that exhausts up the stack. In addition to getting the diesel exhaust away from pax, the noise is further dampened. A thought for future lay-up and/or renovation projects if not already this way!

Hey Bob, yes our generator exhausts up threw the stacks, before it goes into the stack we have a silencer muffler on it, less noise then the fan from the boiler. Also the generator preheats the boiler feed water with a heat exchanger which has made a considerable difference when we are running in the early spring and fall when the lake is around 45 degrees.

How big of a project am I getting into when I go to replace the piston rings, and what should I have, tools, to make sure the job gets done?

A ring compressor is a must. If you can't find one of the correct size at an automotive store, you could make one out of hose clamps. Do you treat your boiler water?

Electrical Service Needs

When considering the noise created by gen-set, do not just consider the sound produced directly from the gen-set. The decibel readings quoted assume the gen-set is mounted properly on a solid base, I presume with vibration isolating mounts. They also assume a tuned engine, and a specified load. When the gen-set is mounted on a boat frame, the boat hull acts as a megaphone amplifying the sound and vibration of the gen-set. The hull, deck, and frames are all vibrating in tune with the gen-set and adding to the sound output.

Your perception of the current sound level is biased by our modern accustom to internal combustion engines. The ability to have a conversation is not the test. The test is the ability to hear the water and the environment. A steam-only boat will equal a sailboat in silence, with only the addition of the puff-puff of the engines, and perhaps burner roar if oil-burning.

The difference between steam and diesel gen-sets is noticeable. I had a conversation with the Captain of the sidewheel ferry Trillium in Toronto during the 1995 Steamship Historical Society meeting, and he related the difference before and after switching to diesel gen-set. At that time, fuel consumption was not the issue, but stable 60hz AC. The steam dynamo could not maintain stable 60hz under the load of food service, musicians, and boiler burner. Even though the diesel gen-set was in a sound isolating enclosure, he could sense the difference while underway.

I am curious about the fuel consumption when running the steam dynamo. I have heard similar comments from the engineers on the Belle of Louisville. I believe, but have no evidence, that many of these U.S. made steam dynamos are horribly inefficient. Their primary design objective is to maintain an accurate rotating speed to support 60hz AC current, not fuel economy. This results in heavier flywheels, larger bearings, longer cutoffs, and more steam consumption. The dynamos on the Belle of Louisville are single stage steam turbines, wasteful designs (correct me if I am wrong). In this day and age, high amperage inverters are easy to obtain. I bought a 1500 watt one from Amazon.com for $113 last fall to power my (full size) refrigerator from our auto battery during a long power failure. A more efficient steam DC generator could be rigged to charge a set of batteries, and then AC could be obtained with solid state inverters for any devices that do not have a 24 volt DC option.

High-speed, compound steam dynamo sets can be found from British builders, and I wonder if these are much more efficient. Here is a vendor that reconditions and sells many sizes of steam dynamos:
PRESTON SERVICES ~ Steam Engine Driven Generator Sets

I still argue that a step by step economy review would significantly reduce electrical needs, and reduce the size, noise, and fuel economy of the gen-set. For example, changing from incandescent to fluorescent or LED bulbs.

I believe it would be very educational to "take" steam diagrams of the paddlewheel engines and the steam dynamo. These are graphical pictures of the cylinder steam pressure over a revolution. This would tell you a great deal about the valve settings and expansion (efficiency) on both engines. In the old days this was done with a dedicated mechanical device, a steam indicator. Today, you use solid state sensors screwed into the cylinder drains and a laptop computer. You might inquire at the local engineering school and invite some students to take on this project. You would contact professors teaching "Thermodynamics" or "Heat Transfer".

Piston rings and lapping of valves may be warranted on everything if they have not been done for many years. I would include rings and valve lapping for the steam dynamo and the steam pump. This may in fact be a major source of your fuel consumption when these services are running. I have a miniature steam locomotive which I purchased used, and I had a terrible time making steam and pulling any load. I thought it was my fault, bad coal, etc. The previous owner never noticed because he operated on a level track and never had passengers, while my local club had a 2% grade and I wanted to haul my family around. Well, I finally tore the engine down one winter and looked at the pistons. Part of the rings were gone! These are square graphite packing rings, and they had rotted and blown out of the exhaust. I fitted new rings, and then walked my whole family right up that 2% grade the next spring, with the safety valve lifting! I really noticed the difference in the tightness of the cylinders. Not the friction, but the air tightness. I found I could not roll the cold engine without setting the valve gear and/or opening the throttle!

Steam is very robust, but it also can give the impression that everything is fine when it is not. IC engines will stop when systems fail. Steam engines will continue to operate at reduced performance. Fuel consumption is your gauge of engine health. Reducing fuel consumption requires lots of tinkering, maintenance, and small changes. Lots of small issues add up to one big fuel bill.

Another note on rings: internal combustion rings are not appropriate. They are too tight. You need dimensionally close rings, with a very light springiness to them. IC rings will add a lot of friction, without any additional sealing. Most likely, you will have to have rings made by a machinist. Cast iron is a traditional material, but good luck getting that in your size, on a budget. Teflon has been used for rings by many in the large scale steam hobby. Try it in your steam dynamo as a test first, and then apply to the engines if successful. Teflon is easy to machine, easy to obtain, very slippery, and of course will not rust during layup.

I would also create/obtain a water pre-heater and pipe your auxiliary exhausts to it, in addition to some of the engine exhaust.

Great advice, Steve. I was going to mention the tension problem with rings. We have made rings from iron water pipe that was very close to the diameter we needed. Worked very well.
I would be leary of teflon at those temperatures and pressures, it is a flowing material, but that's just IMHO. Materials do change as technology gains (or loses sometimes!).
S'
David D.

The composite rings we have used are just that. Made of different stuff, I know not what. They have a steel band backing them. They do the wearing, leaving the cylinder like new, and require less lubrication. All my information on them is elsewhere or I would give you the name of the supplier. But there may be a company in that area that supplies industrial applications, which would include steam.

Lexie,
That sounds intriguing. Always good to keep up with new developments that might help the machinery! When I mentioned that things are sometimes lost, I was thinking of the change in lubrication compounds that hit the SP4449 group. Their supplier changed the composition of what they were buying without mentioning it, and it wasn't any good for their application anymore! (I don't have the particulars, so I'll just say "names have been changed to protect the guilty") 🙂
S'
David D.

Teflon for steam applications

Teflon has been applied on the small steamers with success for many decades now. It is rated to 500 degrees, and has been successfully applied to locomotives with superheaters. It does get soft under heat, but still strong enough for its sealing purpose.

I use teflon rings turned and drilled on my lathe for water glass packings. The gauge glass is a 3/16 glass tube in compression fittings, the fittings are out of alignment, and the fittings are a loose fit. Teflon solved all my leak problems there. Engine hydro tests at 120 psi, operates at 80 psi. Teflon makes a great valve gland seal also.

Dave: I've spotted a three-chime open-top whistle...Never saw one with an open top before. It has about a 3" dia bell about a foot long??? No name I could see. Do you know anything about such? It has a 1" pipe connection...This has been edited to include a second thought. Could this be a Six-chime whistle, with the top three fed up thru the center column? It has no integral valve in base. Cap'n Walnut.

Tom Schiffer;16560 wrote: Dave: I've spotted a three-chime open-top whistle...Never saw one with an open top before. It has about a 3" dia bell about a foot long??? No name I could see. Do you know anything about such? It has a 1" pipe connection...This has been edited to include a second thought. Could this be a Six-chime whistle, with the top three fed up thru the center column? It has no integral valve in base. Cap'n Walnut.

Capt.
If it has no manufacture name or numbers ,,it may be a homemade type...
i've seen a lot of thoughs over the years,,...
Dose it have like 3 chambers in side of it ?? ,and, is it cast,, or look like its brass ?? AND ,,do you have a pic ??
or p.m. me,, and we can email ,,...:)

Tom Schiffer;16560 wrote: Dave: I've spotted a three-chime open-top whistle...Never saw one with an open top before. It has about a 3" dia bell about a foot long??? No name I could see. Do you know anything about such? It has a 1" pipe connection...This has been edited to include a second thought. Could this be a Six-chime whistle, with the top three fed up thru the center column? It has no integral valve in base. Cap'n Walnut.

Tom, a picture would be great, the gentleman that loans us different whistle to blow on the C-Belle has a collection of over 100 dating back to side wheeler steamers in 1876 and well before that; if anyone he would be able to find out exactly the make and time frame by looking at it with his knowledge.

Dave, Matt: Thanks for the quick reply. I was brain-dead at the time I saw the whistle, had my camera with me and did NOT take a photo of it. It is NOT home made...shallow, cast brass bowl at the bottom cast interior chambers visible at top and bottom. Did not have long to view it but may be able to acquire it later. I am worried that it will be too big for MISSIE to blow...she only works with two to two and a half gallons of water in her little copper water tube boiler. I cannot blow any prolonged blast on any of her present whistles and could install an accumulator but would rather eschew the complication. Thanx and stay "tuned" Cap'n Walnut.

Steve Huffman;16504 wrote: Matt,

The Chautauque Belle's original pilothwheel found its way to Florida several years ago, to the home of Capt Dick Irwin (formerly of Madison, IN). Capt. Irwin and Jim Webster were good friends. The pilotwheel was the original from circa 1975, and is about 6' in diameter. The wheel was removed in 1978 or '79 and given to Jim Webster. Jim had it for many years until he gave it to Capt. Irwin.

Capt. Irwin came to my landing to see the BARBARA H in '05, and he mentioned the pilotwheel. Since we are a non-profit, he offered to donate it to us. Knowing the Chautauque Belle had some connections in Louisville (designed by Alan Bates), I suggested that maybe the folks with the Belle of Louisville would have a place to give the wheel more visibility. So I coordinated the effort between Capt's Kevin Mullen and Dick Irwin to get the pilotwheel to Louisville. This was completed by January 2006.

The pilotwheel was hung on the wall in the Master's office at the Belle of Louisville's office. I presume it is still there.

-Steve

Steve, that's great to hear the wheel didn't end up lost in time, I know we have been steering the Belle with an extra globe valve head we had around for all these years... haha just kidding, but that is great to know, I wish I had known Mr. Webster better before he passed away this last year, my grandfather just refinished the 6 foot diameter wheel thats on the Belle now, along with the wooden stool, lazy bench, and table, so they all match and look beautiful. If you could get me a picture or know of anyone that could it would be great, I'd love to frame it and put it up with all of our historical pictures.

Mat

Indicator Cards

Mathew - I have taken indicator cards using electronic sensors and a laptop PC as Mr Harrod describes (this was aboard the "Belle of Louisville"). Perhaps I could do the same onboard your vessel, should you be interested.

Mathew,
I work in the engine room on the Belle of Louisville. I'm curious about your boiler. How old is it? Do you have a maintenance history on it? What kind of water treatment do you have, if any? Here we have a traditional fire tube boiler system that has worked very well for us and is a real education for new USCG inspectors. We tried a package system on here (in the 1960s') that was replaced by the current system because it just couldn't keep up with our steam demand, even though it had the proper horsepower. I'll leave the details of that story to those who know and can tell it much better. I've read some on package systems, such as Johnston's, and I've seen such a system (Cleaver Brooks) on the Natchez. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though, on how well that Johnston boiler works for you.

Dan Lewis;16583 wrote: Mathew,
I work in the engine room on the Belle of Louisville. I'm curious about your boiler. How old is it? Do you have a maintenance history on it? What kind of water treatment do you have, if any? Here we have a traditional fire tube boiler system that has worked very well for us and is a real education for new USCG inspectors. We tried a package system on here (in the 1960s') that was replaced by the current system because it just couldn't keep up with our steam demand, even though it had the proper horsepower. I'll leave the details of that story to those who know and can tell it much better. I've read some on package systems, such as Johnston's, and I've seen such a system (Cleaver Brooks) on the Natchez. I'd like to hear your thoughts, though, on how well that Johnston boiler works for you.

Chief,

Our boiler was built the same time as the vessel, the sale date is 1975 on the receipt. We have the inspections and maintenance logs going back to the first season, a couple years might be lost due to the vessel being ran by a non-for-profit before us and the changing of command also meant hard feelings and documentation disappearing.

We have a water treatment system onboard, we preheat our water to around 180 degrees and then from there it's mixed with Boiler Complete Treat H, which is effective against scaling, oxygen corrosion, condensate corrosion, line, rust, & Mineral deposits.

Our Johnston boiler is great, from the simplicity of it, ease of maintenance and layup, and a great company to work with if you have questions. The boiler operated between 86-88% efficiency last season I believe, which is better then most modern boilers that come off the line, the steam is quality is superb, right around 99% dry, so the need of a superheater is unnecessary. Most of the engineers at Johnston know where every one of there boilers are, and whenever I call I never have to explain about the vessel because they remember when the unit was sold, as they were in the company or they mentored under the Engineer. Control is simple and easily adjusted with the automated valves and laid out diagrams for our exact boiler from Johnston on where everything should be set for the desired heating, gph, steam rate, etc.

While at school here at the New York Maritime Academy I've taken a couple of few courses on engineering, steam systems, and thermodynamics and I feel very pleased with how well our boiler system works and is setup. I wish I had the manual with me and I would give you the specifications of the unit, I know off hand that boiler model is 218, 100HP, 3 Pass, 128 tubes, fully automated digital FireEye control, and max pressure is 250lbs.

Anymore questions about the system please ask.

Mat

Definition of Superheat

Dry steam and superheat steam are two separate topics. Steam that is dry is steam that has not carried over water from the boiler, either carried over from the boiler water surface, or condensed enroute in the piping. Dry steam is still saturated steam, and it will not be dry after any distance in piping.

There is a thermal curve, a graph on paper, that charts the temperature of saturated steam at various pressures. That is, you have to heat water to a given temperature to achieve a desired pressure of saturated steam. Superheated steam is steam that is heated further after exit from the boiler, maintaining the same pressure. Degrees of superheat refers to the additional temperature above the saturated pressure curve.

Why bother? One, to counteract the cooling of the steam in the pipes. Two, to counteract the cooling of the steam in the cylinders. Three, so that the steam is capable of expanding in a controlled environment in the cylinder that produces more work and less condensation. All of this assumes expansive cutoff, without which the superheat is wasted.

The bulk of the heat energy in a boiler is applied to changing room temperature water to water at a low boil, 250 degrees. That is dead energy that does little work, and it all goes out the exhaust. It takes water heaters and condensers to recover that energy. The work is accomplished from the energy used to move the water from 250 degrees to 300+ degrees. That 50 degrees dissipates quickly in piping and cold cast iron cylinders, negating all of the anticipated work. Superheat provides a safety margin of additional heat to insure that the steam is ready and willing to perform work in the cylinder.

An efficient steam plant gets the heat into the water with the least waste, moves that steam to the engine with the least waste of potential work (insulation, superheat), expands that steam to extract the maximum work (valve gear, cutoff, compounding), and then recycles as much of the remaining energy into the boiler (exhaust water heater, condenser).

Steven Harrod;16596 wrote: Dry steam and superheat steam are two separate topics. Steam that is dry is steam that has not carried over water from the boiler, either carried over from the boiler water surface, or condensed enroute in the piping. Dry steam is still saturated steam, and it will not be dry after any distance in piping.

There is a thermal curve, a graph on paper, that charts the temperature of saturated steam at various pressures. That is, you have to heat water to a given temperature to achieve a desired pressure of saturated steam. Superheated steam is steam that is heated further after exit from the boiler, maintaining the same pressure. Degrees of superheat refers to the additional temperature above the saturated pressure curve.

Why bother? One, to counteract the cooling of the steam in the pipes. Two, to counteract the cooling of the steam in the cylinders. Three, so that the steam is capable of expanding in a controlled environment in the cylinder that produces more work and less condensation. All of this assumes expansive cutoff, without which the superheat is wasted.

The bulk of the heat energy in a boiler is applied to changing room temperature water to water at a low boil, 250 degrees. That is dead energy that does little work, and it all goes out the exhaust. It takes water heaters and condensers to recover that energy. The work is accomplished from the energy used to move the water from 250 degrees to 300+ degrees. That 50 degrees dissipates quickly in piping and cold cast iron cylinders, negating all of the anticipated work. Superheat provides a safety margin of additional heat to insure that the steam is ready and willing to perform work in the cylinder.

An efficient steam plant gets the heat into the water with the least waste, moves that steam to the engine with the least waste of potential work (insulation, superheat), expands that steam to extract the maximum work (valve gear, cutoff, compounding), and then recycles as much of the remaining energy into the boiler (exhaust water heater, condenser).

Mr. Harrod & fellow engineers,

Sorry if what I said was misinterpreted. To add onto what you were talking about for anyone that doesn't know; I would be rather weary about saying that dry steam is saturated steam, it's the same as saying dry steam is ice. The reason I stated the reasoning for not needing a superheater is the steam is 99% dry, at which point, it becomes superheated steam. The entropy in superheated steam does have great benefits in turbine engines, such as the 565 foot training vessel here at the Maritime Academy, one of the dying breed of steam turbine vessels. But it's positive characteristics for steam turbines is not shared as well with pistons; this was actually a large debate we had in my engineering class last semester on it, especially for non-condensing systems.

Continuing on about dry steam and it's direct relationship to superheated steam, starting off with water at 212F (normal atmospheric pressure of 14.696psia), boiling, the temperature stays constant due to the phase change, and after another 970 BTU the water has completely turned into "saturated steam", from this point if any more energy is added the steam is now "Superheated Steam". Now Johnston boilers are designed so that the steam intake is a higher temperature then that of which the water & saturated steam is, which depends on the pressure you are running; this allows the further heating of the saturated steam, meaning that it would take very little to be able to call the steam superheated.

A start of the explanation from my marine engineering courses.

Mat

Boiler Automation Alternatives

Just to follow up on my thoughts for reducing electrical load, the readers might be interested to know that the Disneyland/World locomotives have onboard low water alarms and fire controls that shut down the burners in the event of low water. These systems are battery operated, and the batteries are charged by solar panels on the cab roof!

Here is a link to one discussion of them:

Disney Railroads Discussion Board :: View topic - Turbo Generators?

The system is also referred to as "mapo" which stands for Mary Poppins. You can find additional references to this system by searching on terms "low water alarm" and "mapo" within the Disney discussion boards.

There is also such a thing as a mechanical/steam low water alarm. It works by a float in the water column attached to a whistle valve. The sternwheeler at Dearborn Village has one. I saw and heard it in action when the fireman blew down the gauge glass.

Here is another link that mentions the fuel saving from water preheating, as well as mapo and morning test routine:

Disney Railroads Discussion Board :: View topic - Standards of Operation

If I had a twelve foot canoe I would welcome a bow thruster. Bow thrusters make good pilots out of bums!

Those were Brown Fintube boilers. The idea was that internal fins in the flues would transfer heat very quickly. During the trial run all of the fins disappeared (burned off!). In addition the back head bagged and we had to add stays from end to end of the boilers.

The USCG commander advised the board to buy the boilers with the most water capacity and the lowest firing rate. Unfortunately a cheapskate on the operating board convinced the other members to do the opposite to save money. In the end nearly a million dollars was wasted. He proved that cheap does not mean economical. Those boilers were so bad the pilot was obliged to ring a slow bell before blowing the whistle!

They were replaced by three fire tube boilers made by the Nooter Company in St. Louis. They are still there forty years later and have given very little trouble.

As for the steam-powered generator on the Chautauqua Belle, it always used more steam than the propelling engines. I do not know where the internal combustion generator is located. If it is on deck and is too noisy, relocate it on the hull bottom so the fishes can enjoy the noise. The weight of the boat resting on a fluid makes a great sound absorber.

Mat,
Thanks for all the info. and the quick reply! It sounds like you're busier than a one-armed paper hanger between school and the boat. We're going through our usual spring madness with starting up for the season, so I'm on the slow bell for responses.

You mentioned in an earlier thread your search for steam equipment/parts. We are still able to buy new such small items as drip oilers. The newer ones, though, just don't catch your eye like the older models. It's the same with gauges. I've scoured through ebay's listings and had some success in finding such antiques relatively cheap if your willing to invest in some brass polish. We've also had donations made from retired engineers once they see we actually use steam equipment made obsolete decades ago. We still have valves in use that are antiques we recondition with some lapping compound, a lot of elbow grease, and patience. In fact, we have valves in use from companies (such as Jenkins) that have been out of business for many moons.

It was also mentioned in earlier threads your old steering wheel being around here. If its the wheel I've seen on display in our offices, I'll try to snap a photo for you. Anyway, I hope your season is going well.

Dan Lewis;16661 wrote: Mat,
Thanks for all the info. and the quick reply! It sounds like you're busier than a one-armed paper hanger between school and the boat. We're going through our usual spring madness with starting up for the season, so I'm on the slow bell for responses.

You mentioned in an earlier thread your search for steam equipment/parts. We are still able to buy new such small items as drip oilers. The newer ones, though, just don't catch your eye like the older models. It's the same with gauges. I've scoured through ebay's listings and had some success in finding such antiques relatively cheap if your willing to invest in some brass polish. We've also had donations made from retired engineers once they see we actually use steam equipment made obsolete decades ago. We still have valves in use that are antiques we recondition with some lapping compound, a lot of elbow grease, and patience. In fact, we have valves in use from companies (such as Jenkins) that have been out of business for many moons.

It was also mentioned in earlier threads your old steering wheel being around here. If its the wheel I've seen on display in our offices, I'll try to snap a photo for you. Anyway, I hope your season is going well.

The first thing I learned coming to the NY Merchant Marine University is how to turn tarnished brass into gold, so thats never a problem! I would love to see your collection, I have been looking around on eBay for products and such, and hopefully I can get a chance to come down and see some of the vessel down south come the end of the summer season and the fall. I got a message the other day, they had spoken with a female named Linda who said the wheel had been turned into a table! I can't imagine how it looks haha! Feel free to contact me [email protected] !