W.P. Snyder Jr. Return to Steam

Wonderful idea but fraught with lots of concerns. Where get licensed crew once it is made steam worthy? Boilers that old would have to be rebuilt or replaced. All valves and piping would have to be inspected, and refurbished or replaced. Engines, generators, wiring and pumps likewise. Steering gear, running gear, radar, etc brought up to speed. Back when it was first docked at Marietta, all was in operating condition. I have never seen where at any time thereafter, it raised steam for any purpose. Which begs the question: what purpose would it serve at the costs incurred? The VALLEY GEM now serves as a paddle wheeler (moored next door) out of that port at a LOT less cost to the patrons. Cap'n Walnut

*SNYDER steaming again?*
Steamboating colleagues:
This has been floated [No pun intended] a number of times before. Opening questions are: Why? For what reason? Just keeping the boat preserved and relatively secure from the elements is a major project. Such a proposal would never fly with more than one government agency in addition to the Coast Guard. The boilers, as Cap'n Walnut mentioned, would need total replacement as would thousands of feet of vital piping. The total electrical system another issue. Okay, what fuel would you be allowed to burn even and if? What about other environmental regulations? The SNYDER presently a property of the Ohio Historical Society. Sorry, it just ain't gonna' happen. I began he project for the 1st SNYDER renovation beginning back in 1984 up to 1988.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Steamboaters and Fellow Enthusiasts,
I hope you take time to read all of this with an open mind and realize that returning the W.P. Snyder Jr. to steam would be a long and labor intensive project. When I say to return her to steam, I am speaking of a project that would take years and thousands of hours of voulnteer labor. The whole project would require an overhaul of the entire vessel, but now that she is in no immediate danger of sinking, I think that the Museum could take time and work to the eventual goal of returning the old towboat to operating condition. There are many different aspects of this project that need attention, and I will try to answer some of the previously asked questions, as well as ask some of my own.
First off is the question of WHY? Why start a project that would cost so much and require countless hours of labor? Well, why do other groups do this all over the world, operating and maintaining ships far older then the Snyder? Simply to preserve these vessels, so the younger generations can learn about the past and carry on their knowledge to the future. So really, the question is Why not?
If and when it is restored to an operating condition, it would not operate on a daily basis, but would sail for things such as museum benefits and festivals along the river, even possibly tramp as a mobile museum. A good example of this type of operation is the Steamer Portland, in Portland, Oregon. It steams occasionally to travel to different shows, festivals, and for generating museum revenue. When it is not, it sits infront of the museum as a self tour type of boat. So, return the Snyder to operating condition purely for these reasons.
Now comes the MECHANICAL aspect of the restoration. I am aware that maintaining any vessel in any state whatsoever is a major task in itself, but things in better condition tend to need less attention then things that are in a not-so-great condition. So, as to the already existing task of maintaining the Snyder, this is just a new aspect of the vessels maintenance. Restoring the Snyders machinery is simply another part of the ensuing upkeep of the vessel, to which the museum has pledged to do.
As was mentioned earlier by R. Dale Flick, I am not the first one to have this idea. It was also stated that the Boilers are one of the key points to see if it is even remotely possible to return the Snyder to steam. Since that is the case, HAS THERE BEEN ANY TYPE OF FEASABILITY STUDY OR CATALOGING OF THE CONDITION OF THE BOILERS? I have prior experience working with different types of boilers, and can say that without a doubt there will be something that requires attention on them. However, one of the key parts of finding what condition a boiler is in is to have them ULTRASOUNDED, to see what overall condition the walls of the pressure vessels are in. If they are still sound with a minimal tolerance of corrosion, they can be returned to operation.
The boats NAVIGATIONAL systems would also need a checkup, like the installing of up to date radar and river reading systems, as well as having the steering gear and other things of that nature checked.
VALVES AND PIPING would need to be checked and replaced if necessary, which is highly likely.
The ENGINES, GENERATORS, AND WIRING also require attention. I have heard that the engines of the Snyder are in good condition, and would only need minor things adjusted and changed, unless (heaven forbid) there is a crack in some type of casting. Generators would need a basic overhaul, and could be reused. The wiring and electricals of the boat would need to be replaced entirely and brought up to modern code.
If this all flies, and the boat is brought up to operating condition, WHAT FUEL WOULD IT USE AND COULD IT MEET ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS? The answer is simple and obvious. It would either be able to use Diesel fuel or Bio-Diesel like the Steamer Natchez, or Fuel Oil like what the Belle of Louisville uses. Both of these boats meet enviornmental regulations with their selected fuel types, the more friendly one being Bio-Diesel, which would appease the Environmentalists.
LICENSED CREW would also be relatively easy to come by. There would have to be Engineers and Fireman that hold Federally Mandated boiler operating certificates and likewise engineroom staff. Boiler operating certificates are relatively easy to earn, as I currently hold one recognized by both the ASME and NIBC. Pilots and Deckhands are also numerous.
The GOVERNMENT AND COAST GUARD approval depend on a number of factors, and unfortunately I am not familiar with the overall construction of the Snyder, which are a crutial part of what the Coast Guard looks at for approval. Therefore, I cannot predict what they would say after all aspects of the sailing of the Snyder are covered. I hope someone with more knowledge of this type of thing posts.
Now, the biggest part of any voulnteer project is the MONEY! The only way to answer this question is with FUNDRAISERS DONE BY THE MUSEUM AND GENEROUS DONATIONS. It would be up the the museum to orchestrate this and raise funding.
And lastly is the issue of ATTITUDE. If you ask "Why not" instead of "Why" then the overall outlook on anything improves. Look towards the future optimistically because really, who knows? This has happened with much bigger boats like the S.S. Jerimiah O'Brien. Take it one step at a time. Plus, nobody will ever know unless someone tries. PLEASE POST A REPLY!!

Liam

*SNYDER's asbestos/throttle etc.*
Hi, W.R. & Cap'n Walnut:
No intent on my part to come over as cryptic in the above posting RE: W.P. SNYDER. The dinner bell went off upstairs and I had to race up the steps. Many of these proposals to either find, buy an existing steamboat somewhere, someplace a moot issue. Even a total 'new build' fraught with 'ifs, ands, maybes.' The SNYDER'S near total wood superstructure one of many problems/issues. Also the matter of tons of asbestos still in place, sealed without removal. Capt. John Beatty walked me through the SNYDER a number of times during his 1980s restoration. Another issue was the dangerous condition of her main throttle. "This just isn't a case of raising a little steam and walk around fixing leaks, repairing pipe joints here and there," he said. I also remember many years ago her rudders being dropped out of the boat with them resting for years in the mud on the bank. Whether CRUCIBLE CO. purposely removed any vital engine parts from her when turned over as a gift in 1955 unknown to me at present; but this often the case at times to prevent a boat from ever again entering active service. The SNYDER today is a static museum display, a relic, no more and no less.

The proposition of steam alone today, except for presently existing boats with such, for a new build or to remodel will be nearly an impossible proposition. What is your market? Area of operation? Competition? The 'what if' propositions require a business plan before even thinking of a boat. Even if curiously interested, the minute you pick up the phone then your money ticker $$ begins and continues on and on. Then your incorporation with license fees etc. Your banker, lawyer, marine surveyor, engineer, architect, marine ways, future captain as an advisor. May as well be adopted and move into your home. A thin line between steamboat romance and reality. Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati

I think I have mentioned it before, but if Liam or anyone else wants to see a success story, visit the Elissa in Galveston. They did a complete restoration of an old sailing vessel and had a lot less to work with. Deep pockets paid for it, and as is usually the case, it took more than anyone imagined. There was also an enthusiastic volunteer force that would do anything, anything. It took years. Due to the fact that it was historic and not a commercial operation, the Coast Guard was virtually non-existant. In fact, I think there are some rules on the books about requirements for historic vessels, quite different from those for commercial operations. You just have to find a wealthy foundation or 2 that thinks it is a good idea.

I had hopes of seeing the "Snyder" under steam as well, following the splendid hull restoration. However, part of that work included plating over her sea chest intakes, so drawing in feedwater becomes a further challenge.

KEITH, That seems like a small problem to overcome, compared to the all the other issues. However, some more thoughts:
Preservationist will decry the loss of historic fabric when plumbing is replaced, boilers rebuilt, etc.
OTOH, with the near non-existence of operating sternwheel steamboats (heck, any paddle-wheel steam boat) it can be argued that operation of one not only provides a genuine interpretive experience, it also passes along the knowledge and understanding of operating a steam plant.
If I lived anywhere nearby, I'd be helping out! Heck, if airfare were cheaper, I'd be working on the Delta Queen!
Will curate for food. . . .
David D.

I'm trying to remember... Wasn't the hull replating project suspended briefly for concerns about asbestos? I wonder what was done (if anything) to mitigate that before proceeding? That could become an issue again, when it comes to refitting all the steam lines. I wish it could happen, but I'm afraid there are too many "Ifs", too much cost, and too much bureaucracy today. (hope I'm wrong about that!)

Ah... I see Dale's posting touches on the asbestos issue..

I've been spending a lot of time lately viewing Youtube videos of the sidewheel steamers still operating on Lake Lucerne, Switzerland. Some of them are as old or older than the Belle of Louisville. Who owns and maintains them? Is that a Govt. run operation? Some of them, I think, have been dieselized and at least one has been equipped with a bow thruster. Several years one ago of them, the Montreaux (sp?) was converted from diesel back to steam with an all new steam plant which I understand ran way over budget. The theory behind this conversion was that it would prove more economical in the long run as a steam engine would have a much longer life span than a new diesel. In the videos those beautiful boats look as if they are all doing a thriving passenger business. I'd sure like to know more about who operates and maintains them. (Go to Youtube and type swiss lake steamers in the search bar.)

Back to the Snyder - A few years ago I believe that the late Nelson Jones was considering putting the Snyder back in operation. When he found out what all the crew requirements were going to be he backed off. I have to agree with Dale's comments that operating her again would be a nearly impossible project, much as I would like to see her run again. Ditto for the Delta Queen. I think the only way these two boats could ever be operated again would be as museum boats, as has been done with the Liberty ships and the Portland. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough interest in inland rivers maritime preservation in the US for this to happen.

Switzerland, Another World

I have ridden on every one of those Lake Lucerne steamers, but it was many years ago. I have no idea who runs them, but let's just say if they were in the USA, they would no longer exist, much less be running. I did notice that the diesel powered vessel did not maneuver as well as the steam paddlewheelers. They made frequent landings around the lake, and could dock and depart in a matter of a few minutes. They followed a schedule and you better not be a minute late. I would say they are a private enterprise. And a major tourist attraction. They may be operating under a special permit, sort of like the concessions in our national parks. No competition.

John Fryant;31294 wrote: I think the only way these two boats could ever be operated again would be as museum boats, as has been done with the Liberty ships and the Portland. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough interest in inland rivers maritime preservation in the US for this to happen.

John & All,
I agree with you 100% that the only way that the Snyder could be operable again is as a museum boat. It was not designed to ferry people around, and that is why it would never work to ( if and when it becomes operational) steam her on a regular basis for passenger service as the Belle of Louisville or Natchez do, but primarily for special events and festivals. This was I initially meant when I said that the Snyder could return to operation, and slowly work towards this eventual goal by starting to fix what needs fixing. Model the project after the enormous sucess of the Str. Portland. Thanks!
Liam

Those Swiss sidewheelers have tremendous backing power. Viewing the videos, I'm impressed with the precision and speed with which they make their landings. They approach the docks at a much faster speed than the DQ or the Belle of Louisville with the wheels turning dead slow. Then at just the right moment the Capt. rings up full astern and with a great thrashing of water they come to almost an instant halt at just the right spot. Of course they do this as a matter of routine, but it's still impressive to watch. I'm ready to go to Switzerland - all I need to do is win the lottery! By the way, the world's oldest side wheel steamer, the Skiblander, still operates in Norway. She's on Youtube, also.

About 15 yrs. ago Nelson Jones became really interested in returning the SYNDER to steam but he ran into some insurmountable problems and dropped the idea after much research. If he couldn't do it, nobody can.

John, a couple of years ago I was in Switzerland and was fortunate enough to ride on several if the sidwheelers. They are operated as "buses" around the lakes going from stop to stop with people getting on and off. Typical Swiz stlye when the timetable says the boat will arrive at 11:24.....it arrives at 11:24, not 11:25 not 11:23. They seem to run along at about 15 mph and the engines trun 50/60 rpm. A guide told us that a group of steam lovers raised money to convert the boat back to steam.

Another picture

Here's another picture...this was on Lake Geneva. We had taken the boat to Vevey.

*Nelson Jones/W.P. SNYDER*
Hi, Jim & steamboating colleagues:
Home from the sea on the weekend and getting settled in now checking E=Mails, catching up with Steamboats.org. Weather for several weeks great with but gently rolling seas.

The chat thread on the W.P. SNYDER seems to have gathered interest with following postings. Jim, Nelson Jones and I talked more than 15 years ago about the SNYDER restoration/return to steam back as 1984 when I began hammering away here in Ohio to have the pressing needs of the boat met in restoration/repairs. Capt. John Beatty submitted a contract bid and won. At the time I was somewhat taken aback when Nelson mentioned "putting the SNYDER back in operation with steam." I looked long and hard with the question, "You are kidding me, aren't you? For what possible reason or use?" As time and the first restoration project continued Nelson also had other second thoughts in his mind and any further discussions died a' borning then and there. Some long deceased droll S&Der in the Lafayette Hotel listened to Nelson, reached in his wallet, pulled out two one dollar bills and said, "Here, this may get you started."

This above ties in nicely with the discussion initiated by Jim Reising on 'why paddlewheels?' 'Form follows function' with boats/ships being no exception. I must politely disagree that many of the pesent boats/cruise ships are ugly. Don't knock em' until you've tried em.' Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

As a licensed steam engineer, I've long had a keen interest in seeing the Snyder operate under steam again as a roving exhibit. There was a survey done on her in 2004 by a well practiced and respected marine surveyor, along with help from a very experienced licensed steam engineer to provide a plan for restoration, including steps to return her to operating condition. After reading the report, from an engineering point of view, the prospect of bringing her back into operation would certainly be very costly but not impossible.

When this thread came up I googled the Snyder. I found a pic that is now my wallpaper on this pc. I was talking with my wife about the desires to bring her back to steam and realize is would be a benefit to few as she was a towboat?

I purchased last years stern wheel towboat calendar and thoroughly enjoyed it Googling for more pics and stories with every month's new boat. - Am I messed up or what?

So get her under power, post a you tube video, no banjos though >: and I'll bookmark it and enjoy it once in a while. 😉

For now I'll just imagine her paddle wheel turning.....

I almost hate to say it again, since it has already been said on this board many times: If we want to see steamboats alive in this country, PATRONIZE THE STEAMBOATS WE ALREADY HAVE. We have the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE, the NATCHEZ, the CHAUTAUQUA BELLE. All are true steamboats and have owners and operators who treat them with loving care and provide a true steam experience.

Yes, I would love to see the SNYDER, the DELTA QUEEN and the JULIA BELLE SWAIN all running again, but have neither the time nor the money to make that happen. Instead of "wishin' and hopin'", lets ride and see the boats we have NOW. If we don't, then they, too, will be gone all too soon. Bookmarking YouTube videos and watching them once in a while won't do it, folks.

Bookmarking YouTube videos and watching them once in a while won't do it, folks.

It's all I can afford I'm afraid.

HEAR, HEAR~!!! Cap'n Walnut

Bob Reynolds;31335 wrote: I almost hate to say it again, since it has already been said on this board many times: If we want to see steamboats alive in this country, PATRONIZE THE STEAMBOATS WE ALREADY HAVE. We have the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE, the NATCHEZ, the CHAUTAUQUA BELLE. All are true steamboats and have owners and operators who treat them with loving care and provide a true steam experience.

Yes, I would love to see the SNYDER, the DELTA QUEEN and the JULIA BELLE SWAIN all running again, but have neither the time nor the money to make that happen.

Bob and all,
I dont fully understand your thinking patterns. Yes, it is very important to keep operating steamers such as the Natchez, Belle of Louisville, and Chatauqua Belle alive, but, as you stated, they are in stable and worthy hands that treat them with great respect. They are in no danger of going anywhere anytime soon exept on cruises. This whole SNYDER project is simply for the purpose of preservation. Nothing more, nothing less. I must agree that it is important to patronize the operating boats, but if the opportunity presents itself to expand the "River Fleet," I dont understand why so many of you are saying "No, It will never happen." If you think like that, then it truly never will.
Hopefully, the next generation of river and steamboat buffs, myself included, have a changed attitude towards the subject. I will state again that since the SNYDER is now standing on more stable feet, why would it not be the next step to slowly restore the rest of the venerable old boat? Do not think that I am ignorant about the cost, time, Coast Guard issues, etc. because I am completely aware. I DO BELIEVE, HOWEVER, THIS IS A MATTER OF THINKING "WHY NOT" RATHER THAN "WHY." Attitude is a crutial part to ALL projects, and it has been proven before that negative attitudes lead to the demise of great things. And I must say that I am disappointed that most of you carry a "No, it will never happen," attitude.
Since the problem of money has been raised as the #1 issue, I suggest that someone involved with the Ohio River Museum attempts to start a "Penny Program," just like the one that saved the USS CONSTITUTION from the scrappers. Its happened before people, and I genuinely think that you should adjust your attitudes, and maybe something will actually happen!!!! There is so much we could do to make this idea into a reality!! I think that a part of why the JULIA BELLE SWAIN and DELTA QUEEN havn't been returned to service is because of peoples attitudes. If the attitude is negative, then the ripple effect kicks in and it spirals down in a quite negative way. The SNYDER restoration could be a good way to interest the next generation into the river, and teach them the skills of yesteryear. I'm the only 16 year old I know that is remotely interested in this sort of thing, and it is a shame because that shows how much this part of history and preservation is dying. I hope my generation can change this evident problem.

Liam

Liam, you have a great attitude. As you may already know (and if you don't you will find out soon enough!), when folks get older they become more and more cynical. Along with this comes competing needs and priorities. This is probably the chief reason we oldsters say what we do when a project such as this is proposed.

Having said that, please don't let me or anyone else dissuade you from this or any other goal! Everything that has changed our world was done by a young person. Be that person!

The major difference in the SNYDER and the DELTA QUEEN, JULIA BELLE SWAIN, etc. is that those vessels are in private hands and their owners will do what they want, when they want. Since the W.P. SNYDER, Jr. is owned by the State of Ohio, your chances of thsi project getting off the ground would be easier...not to say easy, but possibly easier than dealing with a private owner. Having said that, the State of Ohio, like most states, does not have a great deal of money to fund things like this, and their primary interests lie elsewhere, like us old folks.There might be grants to help fund a project such as this, and fundraisers can succeed. Arousing interest is the key. How to do that I don't know.

I encourage you to work on this if you can. I also encourage you to stay active on this board, and to join Sons & Daughters of Pioneer Rivermen, if have not already. We need young folks and fresh ideas and a "can do" attitude. I, too, was the only 16-year-old I knew who cared at all for steamboats, etc. (Good God, that was 40 years ago!), and my passion served me well to get what I wanted as far as riding and working on boats. Go for it, my friend!