W.P. Snyder Jr. Return to Steam

W.R. Dancey;31374 wrote: Bob and all,
I dont fully understand your thinking patterns. Yes, it is very important to keep operating steamers such as the Natchez, Belle of Louisville, and Chatauqua Belle alive, but, as you stated, they are in stable and worthy hands that treat them with great respect. They are in no danger of going anywhere anytime soon exept on cruises. This whole SNYDER project is simply for the purpose of preservation. Nothing more, nothing less. I must agree that it is important to patronize the operating boats, but if the opportunity presents itself to expand the "River Fleet," I dont understand why so many of you are saying "No, It will never happen." If you think like that, then it truly never will.
Hopefully, the next generation of river and steamboat buffs, myself included, have a changed attitude towards the subject. I will state again that since the SNYDER is now standing on more stable feet, why would it not be the next step to slowly restore the rest of the venerable old boat? Do not think that I am ignorant about the cost, time, Coast Guard issues, etc. because I am completely aware. I DO BELIEVE, HOWEVER, THIS IS A MATTER OF THINKING "WHY NOT" RATHER THAN "WHY." Attitude is a crutial part to ALL projects, and it has been proven before that negative attitudes lead to the demise of great things. And I must say that I am disappointed that most of you carry a "No, it will never happen," attitude.
Since the problem of money has been raised as the #1 issue, I suggest that someone involved with the Ohio River Museum attempts to start a "Penny Program," just like the one that saved the USS CONSTITUTION from the scrappers. Its happened before people, and I genuinely think that you should adjust your attitudes, and maybe something will actually happen!!!! There is so much we could do to make this idea into a reality!! I think that a part of why the JULIA BELLE SWAIN and DELTA QUEEN havn't been returned to service is because of peoples attitudes. If the attitude is negative, then the ripple effect kicks in and it spirals down in a quite negative way. The SNYDER restoration could be a good way to interest the next generation into the river, and teach them the skills of yesteryear. I'm the only 16 year old I know that is remotely interested in this sort of thing, and it is a shame because that shows how much this part of history and preservation is dying. I hope my generation can change this evident problem.

Liam

There are many ways to view the world and one's surroundings and to interact with it. Each way has its own pros and cons. Liam, a more pragmatic person might think something is pie in the sky and there's no way to do anything about it. Others are more romantic and think what if.

There probably wouldn't be a DELTA QUEEN today if Tom Greene didn't think what if I had one of those Delta boats out in California, but it took many a pragmatic manager to keep the boat's bills paid.

Unfortunately the few steamboats that operate today face the same problems that forced the W.P.SNYDER Jr. years ago to the bank along with the DELTA QUEEN and JULIA BELLE SWAIN more recently. A shrinking skilled labor pool, high fuel, labor and maintenance costs, not to mention beaurocratic regulations are known by each of the govenmental or private organizations that currently own and operate steamboats. Face it there are more efficient ways to move people and products over water than by paddlewheel steamboats. Each of the boats operating today are threatened by this reality and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Not to realize this is doing yourself a great disservice.

Thank God for those romantic enough to invest their money in steam navigation, but pragmatic enough to be making the proper decisions to see that their investment has a fair return. The Dows, John Wagoner, Mat Stage, and Lexie Palmore should be commended for the investments of time and treasure and talents they have made in the past or will make. I pray that their rewards financially and otherwise are numerous. Perhaps there are others around that come from the same mold and would love to see the JULIA BELLE SWAIN or DELTA QUEEN under steam again. I hope so. If there is, let it be known it's tough work. Diamond studded gamblers sipping juleps out of sterling cups is more fantasy than fact. The boats don't run on good will and pleasant wishes alone, but it's cold hard cash that pays for the fuel, the taxes, the paint, and even that piece of piping fifty years ago that could be ordered off the shelf but now has to be specially machined to serve its purpose.

For most of us our job is to support the boats which remain. There is not a steamboat on the river or lakes operating today that doesn't need that from each of us. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The BELLE OF LOUISVILLE, BADGER, GRACEFULL GHOST, NATCHEZ, CHAUTAUQUA BELLE, QUEEN OF SEATTLE, MINNE HA HA, and AMERICAN QUEEN are all worthy of our time, money, and some instances talents. The financial cost to each of us can be minimal in many instances. A letter written to your U.S. Senator or Representative on behalf of the coal fired BADGER can make a difference in her operating another year or not. Even more fun, albeit potentially more costly, is to ride the nearest boat sometime this year.

Liam, you're young and idealistic. Use your talents to get your friends as interested in steamboats as you are. Do a history project for school about the DELTA QUEEN and tell others why she matters still. See if you can get your parents to take you to ride the NATCHEZ, CHAUTAUQUA BELLE or the steamboat nearest you.

You, mentioned the PORTLAND, and I am keenly aware of her. She's much younger than the SNYDER and has never been laid up like the SNYDER. The group that owns her was presented a living boat when they took ownership.

Perhaps all of my suggestions above will fall on deaf ears. Maybe a person with your energy should spearhead the drive to see the SNYDER under steam again. Start by seeing what our Dale Flick had to do twenty years ago just to keep the SNYDER safe to walk on. Write Ohio's newpapers with your tale, get the more enlightened politicians to be interested and show them how they can benefit. Preaching to the choir is probably a waste of your time, and seems to get you frustrated. Good luck whatever you do.

We ARE facing it!

But we want paddlewheel steamboats dag nabit!
That's why we're here. 🙂

Frank X. Prudent;31381 wrote: Unfortunately the few steamboats that operate today face the same problems that forced the W.P.SNYDER Jr. years ago to the bank along with the DELTA QUEEN and JULIA BELLE SWAIN more recently. A shrinking skilled labor pool, high fuel, labor and maintenance costs, not to mention beaurocratic regulations are known by each of the govenmental or private organizations that currently own and operate steamboats. Face it there are more efficient ways to move people and products over water than by paddlewheel steamboats.

Frank & All,
I am fully aware that there are more effecient ways to move goods across water. That is precisely the reason they no longer run in that fashion. However, that is not what we're talking about.
I will say again, like I have several times, that returning the SNYDER to operating status would be purely from a historical and preservational standpoint. She would not operate in a similar manor as the DELTA QUEEN and JBS, and should not be compared to them in that sense. Both those boats operated for revenue and steamed on a regular and almost daily basis. This would not be the case of the SNYDER, which I believe her RETURN TO OPERATIONAL STATUS SHOULD BE MODELED AFTER THAT OF THE STR. PORTLAND. The PORTLAND is strictly a museum ship, that spends the great majority of her time tied to the bank of the river. She is, however, capable and able to run on short excursions under her own power and carry a limited amount of passengers with her. She is specially lisensed to do so, jsut like the SNYDER would be.
Also, I am not ignorant as to the burocrats, fuel costs, etc. as I have stated several times in this thread. I think that they have been thuroughly adressed, and many ideas for solutions have also been discussed.
I suggest that you & anyone interested look into the restoration and operation of the STR. PORTLAND. This will help form an idea of the type of life the SNYDER could possibly live. If you or anyone else have further questions, all you need do is ask. That is, precisely, why this website and forum exists. Thanks!

Liam

*Vision with the W.P. SNYDER*
Hi, Liam, Bob, Frank, Ron etc. and steamboating colleagues:
I concur 100% with the positive feeling Liam has for returning the W.P. SNYDER to steam. I certainly hope I never came over previously as "cynical" RE: the SNYDER, what the demands are, what I sweat blood, toil and tears over just getting her repaired/restored the first time beginning in 1984/1985 culminating in the work by Capt. John Beatty in 1988. When the SNYDER was towed here by Nelson Jones for the next 'Tall Stacks,' she was a total sensation rivaling many of the boats on the Public Landing side of the river here in Cincinnati. In fact, the big display Nelson mounted called 'Working River' with his own boats, SNYDER and others, drew so many across the river that the 'Tall Stacks' honchos here were green-eyed with envy. Remember, I served as secretary from 1984 to 1988 on the 'Rivers Activities Committee' [Frank Prudent was a member as was our Capt. Bill Judd and wife Darlene. Bill had one huge job in river logistics] writing the proposal for the then 'Cincinnati Bicentennial Celebration, 1788-1988.' Again, all on my own time and personal expenses, mind you.

I was certainly a lot younger then than I am now. I was positive, persistent in composing/mailing letters not only to the State House in Columbus, Ohio Historical Society, businesses/industry. I can testify my U.S. Mail went out 'by the pound and not the piece.' The sum total of my efforts then ran me on/around $1,200 to $1,500 personally not to mention countless hours. Discretion, diplomacy, good manners in my communcations with no steamboat hysterics or dramatics with demands. At the first, I felt doubt with no small amount of backside buzzing about "Dale being nuts." The campaign--and it was a campaign--steadily picked up steam not only with S&D of Pioneer Rivermen, but other contacts. Once the initial work laid down, I wisely stepped back for those with experience to take over.

Nobody was more supportive of me than Capt. Fred Way, Jr. I paid for my own flyers to be tucked inside the S&D REFLECTOR spelling out the thinking, needs. Whenever over the years Capt. Fred would hear proposals for putting the SNYDER back in steaming condition, he would smile, puff his pipe and say, "May as well jack up the whistle and build a whole new boat underneath."

I wish you, and others on this web, all the very best in your campaign. Compose your campaign first, recruit your volunteers from this web if they are willing and then break out your check book. At my present age now of 70, I haven't the gumption I had back then. No "cynical" then, but now "reality." You soon learn that, when your campaign is a success, others will try to slip in and take all the credit. Keep us all posted.

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Frank,
Thank you for adding the last part to that message! I appreciate it, and am sorry if I came across as frustrated, and can assure you that it has not fallen on deaf ears. I am just eager to get the ball rolling and knew this would be a great place to discuss the W.P. Snyder Jr. and know so many of you have lots of information! The people here know more about the SNYDER than I do, and most have visited it- I have not. Thanks again!

R. Dale Flick,
What did the restoration in the early 1980's consist of? Thanks!

Liam

W.P. SnyderJr.

Most interesting threads on the boat. Capt. Fred Way was right about just jack up the whistle and inatall a new boat under it. Having just finished a $ 1.4 million dollar rebuild of hull the OHS is about to ask for bids on a $1.0 million resoration of the wood and steel superstructure, renew the deck plating and redo the electric. It has taken two years of the OHS, Friends of the Museum, S & D and others to get to this point. Most of us involved with the boat are just thrilled she didn't end up in scrap yard.

Once the next phase of restoration work is completed, really all that is left is the mechanicals of the steam plant. I know, having work one a couple steamboats that this is still no cheap endeavor, but having essentially a brand new boat all around it does make it a more manageable project.

From what I have heard you're looking at almost entire replacement of piping, new boilers and overhaul of all pumps, condensers and the main engines. However I did hear that when a cylinder head was removed on her a few years ago for inspection, the insides of the engines looked as good as what could be found on the Belle of Louisville today.

Bill, do you know if when they put the hull on her recently, is there still provisions for her rudder posts and steering gear, or was it completely removed and plated over?