AQ's Woes

How was it repaired last time...or was it replaced?? Cap'n Walnut

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, but does anyone know how the shaft can break during regular operations anyway? Isn't it of massive steel?

edited: I just want to make clear that this question came out of pure curiosity. I'm interested in the technical aspects of it and my intention was not to question the operational skills of AQSC in any way at all. Some of you obviously thought I did ... sorry for that!

Franz

Not stupid at all

Stress? The shafts are hollow. The DQ broke hers when I was working on her. It is now at the Howard Museum, I think. The shaft from the Delta King was dug out of the mud near Cincinnati and put on the DQ. It is handy having spare parts sitting around somewhere. One does have to wonder, though. The crack in the DQ's shaft was slightly opening and closing as the the wheel turned. It took the engineering staff a while to even find it. They knew something wasn't right, but in took a couple of watches to locate the problem.

Franz Neumeier;31144 wrote: Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, but does anyone know how the shaft can break during regular operations anyway? Isn't it of massive steel?

Franz

To squeeze the KENNEDY's engines in the AQ's low overhead engineroom the valve jacks were removed from the engines. After she cracked her shaft the first time, simply put, Dad maintained that by not having valve jacks to let steam pass through the engines to keep them warm and relieve pressure on the pistons the shaft was torqued while handling the engines.

The first shaft was replaced, but in old days cracked shafts at times were successfully thermolyte welded while in place. There are photos of the BETSY ANN's shaft being repaired this way. C.W. Stoll was verbal about his fear about the BELLE OF LOUISVILLE not having an extra shaft on hand, just in case. He always wanted for the Operating Board to have an extra as a back up.

Thanks, Lexie and Frank, for the details! Very interesting.

And as mentioned in the addition to my original question, my intention was to learn something new - which I now did 🙂

Franz

Further news from New Orleans is that Bert Suarez was the Pilot on watch and that the boat is operating with her Z-drives and a towboat along side. The lower buckets on the wheel were removed and repairs will be made during layup next month.

*Cracking shafts nothing new*
Steamboating colleagues:
Thanks for Frank's 'heads up' on the AQ shaft breaking dilemma. I also learn "something new" and Frank'e memories of what his father, Bill Prudent, said most revealing. Shafts, pitmans, cranks running afoul on steamboats go back, well, to the beginning of steamboating. A lot of pressure and torque on those vital elements. Steam can be both powerful--and dangerous Capt. Ellis Mace, in his notes, diligently recorded such events in his time as he heard--or saw--it first hand.

The DK's shaft lay for years at the lower end of the Cincinnati Public Landing here in the weeds "and mud" in a kind of limbo storage not far from FRISBEE Co. Now and then a white coat of paint was lathered on by the GREENE LINE crews; possibly Capt. Doc Hawley. When the City of Cincinnati obtained by purchase and right of eminent domain the land for the then new Riverfront Stadium, demolition of the fine, old sloped wharf, that shaft came within a hair breath of being cut up and removed. It was quickly loaded up, carted away for safe storage. Seeing it as often as I did, I often then wondered about frisky college students rolling that shaft down the bank and into the river as a lark. No doubt they would have had not a clue as to what it was.

Lexie, I may be wrong, but seems to me the cracked shaft on the DQ was first spotted by a passenger looking over the stern rail who sounded the alarm. Some of the old boats, sidewheel and stern, often had their wheels break, come completely undone, falling off in the river. Pitmans reported as shooting up tearing out decks and inside cabins. That's the way of steamboatin.' Well, what do I know?

R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

The paddlewheel shaft from the DQ is prominently displayed on the grounds of the Howard Steamboat Museum, with the crack very visible. Some psuedo bucket planks were added some years ago to give visitors an idea of how a paddlewheel is constructed, etc. On the ever lengthening TO DO list of this curator is to replace those deteriorating "buckets" with new and heavier planks!

I well recall when former Greene Line crew members Virginia Bennett and Mickey Frye took me to see the DELTA KING wheel shaft and other parts, lying in a field at Dayton, Kentucky in the fall of 1973. Little did we know then that the shaft would be desperately needed for service on the DQ just 7 years later! That was also the time we boarded the remains of the Str. CHRIS GREENE, still floating, but moved shortly thereafter to its longtime resting place high and dry on the riverbank at Melbourne, KY.

If memory serves (and it doesn't always!), during a visit with Reed Coen in the summer of 2008 while Jonathan was doing his calliope research, he told us that at the time Frisbie built the steam calliopes for the Dows, the plant also built a spare paddlewheel shaft for the NATCHEZ. On a related note, the present-day shaft on the BELLE may date back to 1945 when Frisbie Engine machined a new one to replace the IDLEWILD's 1914 original. Don't know if that one was ever replaced in her AVALON/early BELLE years or not.

Frank: Your memory of your father's remarks makes perfect sense. It is not the great energy of steam so much as the combination of the inertia of that giant turning wheel full of water and the sudden torque placed on the shaft initiated by hydraulic lock of water (condensate) trapped in the cylinder...water will NOT compress and that piston will STOP when it hits trapped water! One engine is steaming ahead in mid-stroke and the other wants to stop the wheel dead! Imagine the stress on the shaft! Depending upon the amount of water in the cylinder and "slop" in the linkage, the stress will either wring the shaft in two or cream the bearings, tear the bearings loose and shove the wheel overboard...or blow the cylinder. Warming the cylinders as your dad said is the answer and that's why they gently roll the wheel before start up (with the cocks open; they are closed soon after leaving to save steam) With slide valves, sometimes enough relief can be had, but with poppet valves there is none. Perhaps the worst thing that can happen is a blown head.

Thanks, Tom! Sometimes this memory works OK. I also remember him saying that a marine engine will never overcome inertia. Even when running Dad would let the cylinder cocks cracked open a bit to get rid of any condensate from the saturated steam that might have accumulated in the cylinders.

We did that with the Graceful Ghost. This also prevented condensed water from going up the scape pipe and giving people a shower bath.

Gazing

I think the problem was discovered by a passenger. Gazing at the turning paddlewheel was a passenger thing and not done very often by engineers. However, before the crack was discovered, I saw the chief and someone else gazing at the paddlewheel and asked them why. They had no answer. They were looking for something, never-the-less. I went to take a nap. Later on, the boat was stopped, awaiting a tow. The DQ operated for a month as part of a tow. And therein lies a tale to tell.

Nothing like having a new white shirt, and getting sprayed with condensate mixed with cylinder oil!
Don't ask me how I know about this!! 🙂
Then there's the time I treated the well with bleach, and Linda decide to wash her nearly-new Blue DQ sweatshirt. . . .
So far I have noticed NOTHING from the AQSC about the shaft problems.
S'
David D.
PS, back to shaft problems; there's also the issue of striking something big in the water too. Didn't the DQ's shaft problem happen after she was blown into a bank? Old memories of a rumor I recall.

What Am I Missing....?

What puzzles me, concerning the talk about the discovery of the crack in the DELTA QUEEN's Shaft is why weren't the Captain and Mate also checking the Wheel at least once a watch? The first thing Captain Wagner ALWAYS did at the beginning of his watch, that he diligently passed on to each of his up-and-coming successors to make a part of their own routines, was to stand on the Hurricane Roof and give the Wheel a thorough visual inspection done as close to the beginning of each new watch, as possible. Cap also insisted that the shaft be kept painted white, for as he instructed, "A crack in the shaft is more noticeable if the shaft is painted white and kept clean."

Captain Wagner's strict admonition concerning the due diligence of inspecting the Wheel and all its components at the beginning of each watch has stuck with me throughout the years all the way to the present CLYDE. where one of the first changes made to the boat was painting the paddlewheel shaft from red to white, because: "Captain Wagner always said a crack in the shaft was more noticeable if the shaft was painted white"... and inspected on a thorough, routine basis by the Captain and Mate as well as by the engine room crew.

Maybe I'm missing something, but a problem so serious, that apparently went on for some time before being discovered ("The crack in the DQ's shaft was slightly opening and closing as the the wheel turned. It took the engineering staff a while to even find it.")... why was it was a passenger, and not one of the crew, who made the discovery?

Lexie Palmore;31157 wrote: And therein lies a tale to tell.

Now we're all waiting with baited breath...go on!

I was reading the little that was posted on Cruise Critic dot com about the AQ's shaft and one poster wrote that a representative of the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) told her that the reason they believe that the original shaft cracked is due to the extra weight of water logged bucket boards. The wood used in what has always been a predominately metal wheel absorbed and carried extra water over the few months the vessel operated and this extra weight was not put into the original calculations as to how sturdy the shaft should be made. I'm not too sure the ABS's diagnosis is the correct one, but certainly interesting nonetheless.

While pondering the above I remembered another rule of thumb my father passed along to keep the paddlewheel turning. Never key the boat while the engine is on center.

During my brief time in the AQ's engine room, I remember her engines being EXTREMELY sensitive to condensate build-up. The engineers operating those engines were trained to be very mindful of how much her cylinder drains were open when warming them up and while underway, especially during the colder seasons. Even after the engines were operating for several hours, changing from a slow to a half speed could make those engines scream! It's no surprise, though, considering she has a very long main steam line and no superheater on the boiler. Even during the dog days of Summer, we never completely closed the cylinder drains!
I would not be surprised if all the shallow water the AQ was in this season added stress to her paddlewheel and engines to cause a crack in her shaft. I am also curious to know where they found the "crack" since her shaft is built in sections bolted together. As far as the Belle goes, she still has a spare shaft sitting on a rack in Jeffboat's marine repair area. The best my memory serves me, I remember Capt. Fitzgerald telling me the spare was fabricated in the 1980s. I don't recall the exact year, though.

some pictures from the AQ

Here are some pictures from the AQ being pushed by a tug boat. Just reveiced these from LeAnne Drives who took them on the AQ with her mobile phone. Thanks so much to LeAnne for sharing!

Franz

*What happened to this discussion?*
Steamboating colleagues:
Greeting and a soon to happen New Year, 2013. Out of town here north in cold, snowy, icy Michigan until this coming Wednesday.

I'm using a borrowed computer to click in on my E=Mails, Steamboats.org. Has something happened? Why does this discussion thread appear to have been cut off, terminated? Last posting I see attributed to Frank Prudent dated 12-26-2012; followed today with just Franz's name but no entry. Please clarify or explain if the missing postings are here on this computer or deleted deliberately. R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Shipyard, see my above posting about "gazing" to answer one of your questions. Apparently the crack had not opened enough to be visible when the chief was looking for it. They were on the sun deck. I do not remember who the captain was on that trip. I don't remember any incident before that that would have caused the shaft to break. The DQ had her share of bumps, bangs, etc. with no damage. I don't recall picking up drift in the wheel. It was summer, the Ohio was at pool stage. I was one of the pilots. More info is probably in a letter somewhere, as I would describe these adventures into letters home. My parents were instructed to save the letters so they are around here somewhere. (This thread is now in linear mode, so I don't know where this posting will show up.)

Dale, this seams to be an issue on your computer (though I don't really have an explanations why this could happen). The thread is alive and well working with many postings beyond 12-26-2012 ...

I just checked and got similar issues when I'm not logged in. Try to log in and you should be able to see the whole thread. If your're logged in already, log off and log back in. I'll try fix the issue not seeing some of the postings when not logged in, but so far I have no idea where even to start with.

Update: The issue only seams to appear when not logged in and when you're viewing the forum in "threaded mode" - I remember we had this issue before with some very few threads and I didn't find a solution for it back then either. So my suggestion is:

a) log in

or

b) switch to "hybrid mode" (from the "Display Modes" menu in the upper right corner)

Franz

R. Dale Flick;31166 wrote: *What happened to this discussion?*
Steamboating colleagues:
Greeting and a soon to happen New Year, 2013. Out of town here north in cold, snowy, icy Michigan until this coming Wednesday.

I'm using a borrowed computer to click in on my E=Mails, Steamboats.org. Has something happened? Why does this discussion thread appear to have been cut off, terminated? Last posting I see attributed to Frank Prudent dated 12-26-2012; followed today with just Franz's name but no entry. Please clarify or explain if the missing postings are here on this computer or deleted deliberately. R. Dale Flick
Coal Haven Landing, Ohio River, Cincinnati.

Go to display mode and Click on one of the three different modes.

I'm having a problem, too. That's why I am in linear mode on this thread. The other thread postings are ok in threaded mode. I am logged in. This problem pops up from time to time and I don't know why, either. A cracked shaft in cyber-space I suppose.